- Category:Erdős numbers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (restore|cache|CFD)
Please see for example Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics#Reasons_to_reverse_the_deletion, where a long discussion is at the top of the WikiProject Mathematics talk page. A user has organized some discussion, and salvaged some of the lost data, at User:Mikkalai/By_Erdos. Note that related categories were deleted also, e.g. Erdos Number 2, Erdos Number 3 etc. There is a huge discussion spread over talk pages at many articles. There seems to be divergence between editors, who voted to delete (in the third attempt), and mathematicians who consult Erdos Numbers. Thank you. Pete St.John 18:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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- I was wrong not to have posted to Brownhairedgirl and SparsityProblem, two of the people who had voted to delete; I was mistaken thinking they already knew. However, Brownhairedgirl was mistaken that I did not notify any delete-voters, as noted below. I notified DGG, MeegsC, and Carlossuarez46. I skipped the anonymous IP. Pete St.John 20:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The user who you refer to as not participating in the CfD debate is somebody who has certainly expressed an interest in and has been involved in this issue, as can be seen by looking at this page that he created in his own user space: User:Mikkalai/By Erdos --Ramsey2006 16:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Not so I !voted for Delete at the CfD & I was among those notified. DGG (talk) 16:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Update re canvassing. I 'd like to repeat my apologies elsewhere to Pete for my mistake in thinking that none of the "delete" voters have been notified (Pete notified 3 of the 5, but chose not to notify the others).
However, after that initial canvassing, Pete engaged in a prolonged and highly partisan votestacking exercise: see WP:ANI#The_votestacking_exercise_continues and User talk:PeterStJohn#Please_tone_it_down. Closing admins may wish to consider the impact of the camapigning in weighing consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. At the last discussion over deletion 11 contributors voted Keep (or strong keep) and 5 (plus one anonymous IP address) voted to delete. When Kbdank71 announced the result (delete) he said "...delete. I honestly don't have time to explain every reason why..." (In all fairness, he then explained that in his opinion the reasons to delete were better than the reasons to keep). At the time some of us (who only learned about the deletion when the bot was triggered) felt rail-roaded. Be that as it may, in response to subsequent criticism he gathered the reasons to delete at this log, which since then has acquired rebuttals; however, rebutting reasons to delete is not the same as reasons to have the category, which I tried to synopsize at the math project talk page. Each of the 11 "keep" votes gives reasons at that link, of course. Pete St.John 21:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse as closer per my explanation Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 October 28. --Kbdank71 18:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The closer's interpretation of the discussion was correct. No substantial argument has been provided that Erdős numbers are in any way a defining attribute and not just the mathematical research equivalent of the Bacon number (i.e. a statistical curiousity which may or may not imply certain things about specific people). The two options offered at the post-close discussion seem more viable: create and maintain a sourced list or add an optional parameter to {{Infobox Scientist}}. – Black Falcon (Talk) 18:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Regardless if the categories are kept or deleted, I'd like to see both those options implemeted. - jc37 21:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse a deletion review Overturn. I'm not a practicing mathematician, but I find the number useful. Though mathematicians as a group do not have a particularly extravagant subculture, it is important to respect what subcultural quirks they have. I thought the deletion was rather odd when I heard about it. --Pleasantville 18:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I could be mistaken, but based on your comments, I think you wanted to "overturn"? (Endorse/overturn refers to the original discussion, not the DRV nom.) - jc37 18:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Revised. I was confused by the way things were phrased. Maybe the intro could be clarified?--Pleasantville 19:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "I find the number useful" seems to be an argument to give at the CFD, not the DRV. --Kbdank71 19:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- In my opinion, the reasons to keep the category were ignored when the overwhelming consensus was ignored; that's why I've raised this deletion review. In your explanation of the deletion, you said that the reasons to delete were better than the reasons to keep, although the 11-5 (11-6 if you count the anonymous IP) would seem to have disagreed with you. So in this discussion we are obliged to remind reviewers of the reasons to keep; Pete St.John 22:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Endorse of EN 1 and 2. Endorse of EN 3 and higher - As I noted elsewhere, it's been shown in previous CFD discussions that the lower numbers (1, 2 and at most 3), are the ones of value. The reason for Weak endorse of 1 and 2, is that making this a list would enable references to show how this person actually has such a number. So even if these categories are kept, I would strongly suggest that such a list be made to complement/support the categories. - jc37 18:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I dropped a note at Jc37's talk also, and will post a clarification of "endorse vs overturn" at the wikiproject:mathematics talk page. Pete St.John
- Thank you for your concern, but I (hopefully) posted what I inteded to. Though you're right that I'm wobbling the fence when it comes to #s 1 and 2, though more due to previous CFD discussions than the one this DRV refers to. Hence why it's Weak endorse, instead of Weak overturn. I didn't see the closer mention that he was taking the previous nominations in consideration when closing. - jc37 19:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion for EN 1,2,3. This is a verifiable, well-known part of the mathematical culture and a measure of the cooperation. Mathematicians proudly report their EN. This number is not as arbitrary as laymen might think: Erdos has over 500 co-authors, beating any other by a wide-wide margin, so he is a natural "center of condensation", unlike the stupid copycat Bacon game. As it was already mentiojned, the category is easier to maintain that the list: this info may be more readily update in the bio article, which is watched by interested persons. `'Míkka 19:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion per ongoing discussion. I respect Kdbank71 and do not question his intentions, only the fact that I believe his decision was (intentionally or not) more of an executive decision then an assessment of consensus. There is a lengthy discussion, which I will not attempt to recreate or reiterate to contextualize my opinion here, but I will again say that I express my opinion here with all due respect for Kdbank71 (and others). --Cheeser1 20:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Week Endorse A distinction needs to be made between the concept of Erdos numbering and the actual listing of each mathematicians number. The former is clearly notable the latter less so. I feel that some of the keep votes are using the notability of the former as a reason to keep the latter. My second concern is the source used to find many of these numbers, namely the AMS Collaboration Distance which is algorithmically generated. As such I don't think it provides notability for an individual authors number. For some authors there are third party sources, such as the authors web-site or The Erdos Number project, use of these sources would have greater notability claim. But I feel that calculating the number from AMS when the author does not even bother to list it is pushing encylopedic value. There is also a small technical problem as to the fact that the AMS site only provides a greatest upper bound on the number as its possible that there are paper not included in the database which provide a shorter path. Another problem is if we take these numbers to their logical conclusion using AMS data and the fact that 50% of mathematicians have an EN of 5 or less, that would make the categories very large with in the order of 850 articles in EN4[1]. I've not been convinced by arguments for notability, Rubin claim of a high correlation with field medalists in the CFD is interesting, from [2] they are all in the first 50% 11 with EN2,18 (EN3), 16 (EN4), 2 (EN5), maybe this is due to the fact that fields medalists probably publish more than average, but this is analysis better suited to the Erdos number page than the category. Personally I don't think is a particular useful measure, it favors mathematician in particular field and time span, and for a large part the numbers are fairly randomly distributed. So basically I think the debate is WP:ILIKEIT vrs WP:IDONTLIKEIT, the categories will always be incomplete and sometimes inaccurate and possibly become unworkable, and there are many other better measures of a mathematicians worth. --Salix alba (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion per ongoing discussion. This is a useful category, for many reasons, explained in detail in the Cfd debate. It is especially useful for editors who contribute to biographies of mathematicians and scientists, as a means to ascertain (very roughly) how close said mathematician or scientist is to combinatorics and graph theory (the subjects Paul Erdős mostly contributed to), and as a navigational tool. The fact that there are so many references out there to this subject, and even a niche in the literature devoted to studying the Erdős collaboration graph (the graph to which this category pertains, after all), should give some added weight to this argument. Turgidson 20:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion The record shows that the closing admin's action simply did not reflect a consensus. The weight of consensus had not shifted against the categories since the two previous attempts to get rid of them. Ntsimp 21:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn for EN 1, 2, and 3. I did not see a consensus for deletion based on the strengths of arguments, but rather the strenuous repetition of the same arguments by a few discussants. However this may be, from the CfD discussion it is evident that even among the proponents of deletion, more than a few favoured keeping the categories for the lower numbers. The information is verifiable, and better maintainable by using categories than using lists. To non-mathematicians this may be considered trivia, but mathematicians who have a low Erdős number cherish it with pride. --Lambiam 21:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close per Black Falcon; this is trivial like astrologic sign and other things that may mean more to more people - and people with Erdos # X -like Bacon # X - have nothing really in common with each other. Carlossuarez46 22:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well no, it's not trivial, and yes, authors who coauthor with so-and-so do have something in common, which is relevant to mathematicians, but all that has been re-rehashed. I really just want to point out that actually, there is a category "astrological signs" as notice under Taurus. It certainly matters very little to me; astrology has been divorced from science for something like 300 years. But as you point out, it matters to lots of other people, who mostly keep to themselves, so I can abide it. Can't you? Pete St.John 23:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion Mathematicians think Erdos numbers are interesting. There is even some bibliography and serious research on the topic: The Mathematical Intelligencer: vol. 21, no. 3 (Summer 1999), 51–63 and it has been also useful for studies on collaboration among mathematicians and research on small world social networks regarding their degrees of separation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Requiemdirge (talk • contribs) 23:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion. My support for the categories mirrors what Míkka wrote, but my real problem is the lack of process. 11 people (vs. 5) explained that they felt that the category should be kept, and that's significant. Many good reasons were given, despite the badgering of the original nominator. Even if those who wished to delete increased threefold the result should not have been delete -- just "no consensus". Beyond all that, though, the categories were useful and added to the encyclopedic value of the articles. (I won't even bring up notability -- the sheer volume of papers written on the subject easily suffices, and sufficient mention of this exists on the original AfD.) CRGreathouse (t | c) 00:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak overturn I kind of agree with Kbdank71 that the arguments to delete were better, but even with discussions not being a vote, it's uncustomary to delete in the face of a 5-11 count in the absence of unusual circumstances such as single-purpose account !votes. "Delete arguments are better" is not easily distinguished from "I personally think the category should be deleted". I will probably vote to delete in the second round. Erdős numbers are fun to talk about but no one is suggesting that the information shouldn't be here, just that the category system is not the appropriate medium for it, which I think is probably true. --Trovatore 02:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. I must admit to some confusion: at first I assumed this was Category:Wikipedians by Erdős number, which I'm further surprised to see hasn't been deleted yet. Anything less than the median is of some signifance, and is going to be more material to a person's notability than the endless "ethnic" categories that people seem to delight in adding -- which generally have precisely none. Alai (E#5, btw.) 02:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion at least for Erdős numbers 1, 2 and 3, as per Lambiam. Gandalf61 09:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. I have closed several debates against the votecount myself, sometimes even blatantly so; when I do that though, I try to carefully craft the closing statement, and its foundation on relevant policies, practices and precedents. Sorry, but "because I think side X had better arguments" doesn't cut it for me. Having read the debate, especially the discussion, I see many valid and coherent arguments in favor of the keep, validly dismissing the claims that Erdos numbers are just trivia. Yes, there were many WP:NOTAGAIN !votes on the keep side, but also many WP:PERABOVE !votes on the delete side; but in total, I don't see how this could be closed as anything else but "no consensus". Preserving only 1-3 is a viable option in my opinion, but AFAICT this idea emerged only at this DRV, thus it's possibly out of DRV's scope (though we're not bureaucracy) Duja► 12:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong endorse deletion. There was lots of evidence that the subject of Erdős numbers was notable, and no argument on that point as plentiful references were produced to papers and other publications which discussed Erdős numbers and the graphs derived from them; but there as no evidence that the Erdős number of an individual was anything other than a point of trivia widely regarded with in the mathematical community as a joke, and in no way a "defining characteristic" of a mathematician per WP:CAT. (Repeated requests for evidence of Erdős numbers being used as a defining characteristic by official academic publications (rather than on individual's homepage etc) produced only one example, in which they were described as "silly"). The failure of many "keep" !voters to acknowledge the difference between on one hand the notability of the topic as a whole and on the other hand the question of whether an individual's Erdős number is a "defining characteristic" was one of the major reasons why the debate became so heated. Further discussion on the talk page after the CfD closed exposed further fundamental problems with categorisation by Erdos number, including that:
1) there is no consensus on the definition of an Erdős number (whether it should be restricted to collaboration in mathematical papers or extend to all scientific papers or even to all academic papers)
2) the mathscinet database regularly claimed as a reliable source can validate only the first definition of an Erdős number, which is not the definition used in the head article Erdős number
3) Other assessments of an individual's Erdős number amount to original research.
Some contributions to this DRV claim or imply that the views of mathematicians are more important in a deletion discussion related related to mathematics than those on non-mathematicians, a principle which would set a far-reaching precedent. Will admins closing future debates be expected to try to verify the professional credentials of individuals who are all entitled to anonymity? Or do we continue the existing practice of treating all wikipedians as rational editors who can weigh the evidence offered by those claiming expertise in a particular subject, by verifying the evidence against reliable sources?
The closure of this debate as "delete" would be wrong if WP:CAT accepted that a widespread joke was grounds for categorisation, but unless and until WP:CAT is changed in such a fundamental way, there were only two ways to close this debate: by making a headcount and saying "keep", or by measuring the arguments against wikipolicy and saying "delete". Kbdank71 was quite correct to choose the latter, and the existence of a campaign amongst a few mathematician wikipedians to attack the decision does not alter existing policy. I suggest that before closing this deletion review, a check is made for the extent of canvassing; I have seen some, but have no idea how widespread it is. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close per Black Falcon - Galloglass 14:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion per all the reasonable arguments above. (Igny 15:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]
- Endorse close per Black Falcon and BrownHairedGirl. Sam Blacketer 15:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure. First, a reminder to all that this is not the place to rehash deletion arguments. This forum is only for discussing the closure itself. Many of the Overturn and even some of the Endorse !votes above fail to remember that fact. Since the topic at hand is the administrator's closing of the discussion, I would have to say that the reasons given for said closure are valid. The !votes in the discussion for "keep" based on "Nothing has changed since the last time" were properly ignored. Similarly weak were the "keep" arguments that seemed to be addressing the notability of Erdos numbers as a concept, rather than the appropriateness of categorization by said numbers. Such arguments would have been valid for an AfD on Erdos number but not on a CfD; they were likewise properly ignored. The remainder of the "keep" arguments, while making a decent case for keeping, were clearly not sufficient to overcome the significant "not a defining characteristic" concerns. Powers T 16:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion A substantial majority with coherent arguments argued "keep". The views of those expressing the same opinions as previously should not be discounted. The close was not in accordance with the debate. Thincat 16:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion. There was no consensus to delete. The close was inappropriate. Paul August ☎ 16:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the closer's rationale. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 16:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion, because there was no consensus to delete. A closing administrator should ignore opinions which are blatantly false, illogical or against policy. The reasoning is that in a wider debate with more unbiased participants, such opinions would be ignored and a consensus would form ignoring these erroneous opinions. However, administrators should be careful with this. It's not proper for administrators to ignore comments which in their opinion should carry less weight if this is only their personal opinion, because that would give administrators powers above non-administrators. I believe that the arguments used by the closing administrator were too subjective and thus that it was closed improperly. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 17:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the closer's rationale. The closing admin acted properly in concluding that the weight of policy was on the side of the "delete" voters. SparsityProblem 19:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:CAT is not policy; it is an editing guideline that is "not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception". Guidelines should follow consensus, not the other way around. Consensus (or the clear lack of it) at the CfD discussion should trump a literal-minded application of the guideline. --Lambiam 22:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't believe that a majority vote that was grounded in "having this trivial set of categories on Wikipedia amuses me, and if you don't think it's appropriate, you must not be a real mathematician and you probably dropped out of kindergarten too" trumps a minority vote that was grounded in guidelines and tradition. SparsityProblem 23:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well your glib and offensive gloss of the opposing view is, perhaps, no worse than my categorization of "deletionist editors" to which you objected, so we'll let that pass. However, the "guideline" arguements, that I saw, were also rebutted. Please point to specific ones that were unsatisfactorily addressed. I don't know about "traditions" but Erdos Numbers are older than most wikipedians, perhaps, certainly decades older than Wikipedia itself, so maybe our tradition trumps your tradition. Pete St.John 23:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What's this "our tradition" vs. "your tradition" business? So far as I can tell, we're both Wikipedians, and that's the only relevant identity here. I think the closing admin's summary given on the CFD talk page show how guidelines support the case for deletion, and I'm aware that rebuttals were posted, but I don't find them convincing. Lastly, I have no idea in what universe it could possibly be relevant that Erdos numbers are older than Wikipedia itself. Baldness is also older than Wikipedia, but we don't have a "bald people" category. SparsityProblem 23:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Age pertains to tradtion, you brought up tradtions. I'd be interested in someone enunciating the tradition which implies that the Erdos Categories should be deleted. Pete St.John 21:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- That kindergarten comment seems a bit hypocritical, considering part of your argument was "your opinion doesn't count since you don't have a PhD yet." --Cheeser1 01:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh plz; if I were saying that the opinion of anyone who doesn't have a PhD doesn't count, I wouldn't be participating in this discussion, since I don't have one. Nor do some of the people I respect most in the world. However, that's not particularly relevant. The point is, this is not a war between mathematicians and an evil cadre of Wikipedians bent on stopping them from having their harmless fun. It's rather a debate between those who think Wikipedia should be governed by general guidelines that have evolved over time to promote the building of a useful encyclopedia, and those who think exceptions should be made in order to promote subjects they like. (User:PeterStJohn said as much in one of his canvassing messages at the mathematics WikiProject page, where he said that these categories were a good way to memorialize Erdos. Well, Erdos was a great guy, but the category tree is not the place for memorials.) SparsityProblem 01:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The memorial is part of the reason mathematicians like the category, not a reason to have the category. Mathematicians liking and using the category is one of the reasons for keeping the category. Pete St.John 21:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion, strongly as per extensive arguement. My opposition to the deletion has been sufficiently prominent, I think; however, I had misconstrued this Deletion Review mechanism, thinking that overturning admins required admins. However, "anyone may comment" appears to mean "anyone may vote endorse/overturn, as those are really comments, not votes" and I wish my "vote" to be on the record. Pete St.John 19:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion. There was no consensus to delete. In addition, several of the supposedly stronger arguements don't make any sense to me. For example, how is the fact that not all 8000 mathematicians with a particular Erdos number (or range of numbers) are not notable enough to have a wikipedia entry even relavant to the discussion, much less a reason to delete? We don't delete categories about people who were born in year 1957 just because not everybody born in 1957 is notable enough to have a wikipedia article. As for accuracy, this has not been demonstrated to be a problem. Wikipedia has policies reguarding truth vs verifiability using reliable sources. As for Erdos numbers not reflecting ones skill as a mathematician and similar comments, unless a person's Erdos number is 0, this is a strawman. Erdos numbers have never been presented as such, although no doubt many mathematicians with Erdos number 1 are extremely and uncommonly good mathematicians. But this is not what they measure.
- As a mathematician, I like being able to see somebody's Erdos number at a glance when I come across a math biography. It makes wikipedia a more useful and valuable online encyclopedia for me. (Yes, I could go over to MR and type in the guys name, but I generally wouldn't bother to do so as a wikipedia reader, unless it was to add the information as an editor.) It is a significant part of mathematical culture and folklore, and a part of mathematical culture which has been popularized to a great extent in the general public, also. People are interested in the individual Erdos numbers of individual mathematicians, even if this is not the most important and significant peice of information contained in a biographical article. And the list of those interested does not only include other mathematicians. (As a side note, in my opinion, large Erdos numbers of individual mathematicians is just as interesting as small numbers. If the subject of a math bio has an Erdos number of 14, this is something that I would be fascinated to stumble across in an article, and after stumbling across this little peice of information, I would definitely be inclined to go over to MR and start tracing the collaboration paths, at least late on a friday afternoon. I would also click on the category to see who else has a bio here who has such a large finite Erdos number.) --Ramsey2006 21:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not the forum to debate the arguments over whether the category should be deleted or not. The only thing we're debating here was whether the closing admin acted in accordance with rules. SparsityProblem 21:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Your point is well taken, SparsityProblem, but unfortunately it's not so simple. The closing admin's stated reason for overturning the 11-5 majority was that the reasons to delete were better than the reasons to keep. I don't see that, and the clear, two-to-one consensus didn't see that, but that's the excuse he gives. Pete St.John 21:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Pete St.John as a regular participant in these discussions I know to my cost its the quality of the arguments on both sides not the weight of numbers that decides these things. - Galloglass 22:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Galloglass, in this case my citing the numbers (11-6 to Keep; not a lack of consensus to delete, but a clear consensus to keep) is my arguement that the superiority of the "delete" arguement is at least not obvious (a two to one majority didn't appreciate it). In fact, the arguements to delete have mostly been vapid and clearly rebutted with strong arguements by veterans. However, neither numbers, nor logic, necessarily win "these things" by themselves. The deletion is a good example of a decision that was made despite either logic or numbers (at least as far as I have been able to discern). Be all that as it may, a clear vote to overturn serves at least as a signal that a part of the user community is deeply dissatisfied with an administrative fiat. That's the start of reform, even if we don't get back the Category. I'm really much more concerned with the process: fiat ignoring consensus, opposition ignoring expertise, and members of one group (deletionist editors?) attacking processes internal to another group (apolitical mathematicians). Why do they care? Pete St.John 22:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Your characterization of this debate as an issue between "deletionist editors" and "apolitical mathematicians" is both disingenuous and offensive. Knock it off, please -- on Wikipedia we try to discuss content, not people. You know as well as I do that the only self-identified professional mathematician who voiced an opinion on the debate called Erdos numbers a "mathematician's joke". And there is nothing "internal" to the group of mathematicians -- even if mathematicians actually favored keeping these cats, *WHICH THEY DIDN'T* -- about processes on Wikipedia, which are governed by all Wikipedia users. SparsityProblem 22:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Offensive, perhaps, dunno about disengenuous, but as someone else commented, if we are goaded repeatedly we have a harder time keeping our temper. Call the two camps "delete" and "keep", then. However:
- No, of course I don't know as well as <you> do that the only self-identified professional mathematician who voiced an opinion on the debate called Erdos numbers a "mathematician's joke". There have been three debates (that I know of) prior to my learning there was an issue. Pointing to one self-professed mathematician calling it a joke says nothing about the community; for that, feel free to vist the wikiproject. Opinion among mathematicians is largely in favor of keeping the category (not entirely, and many aren't aware of the issues). Several have posted on this very thread, unambiguously in favor of keeping, and plainly (and verifiably) identifying themselves as mathematicians. And furthermore, there is more to the "joke" even taken as such, as I described earlier. It may be that not enough of the majority voting to keep the category self-identified as mathematicians, but they did in fact express the consensus in the profession (that we like it and use it and you are free to ignore it). Please stop rehashing "reasons" that have been rebutted over, and over again, many times. Pete St.John 23:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There are a number of mathematicians who have been against keeping the category. --Salix alba (talk) 00:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no idea what your justification might be for saying "Opinion among mathematicians is largely in favor of keeping the category," since most mathematicians don't pay attention to Wikipedia kerfuffles and thus aren't even aware of what's happening. Even if you mean "opinion among mathematicians who use Wikipedia", I still have no idea what the possible grounds might be for saying this. Many people may identify themselves as mathematicians, but those who actually have completed their academic training and are employed as mathematicians and interact with other mathematicians on a regular basis, in real life, are more likely to understand mathematical culture than those who haven't. And I say this not as a way of suggesting that anyone is better than anybody else (I'm only a grad student, and not in mathematics, although I did do an undergraduate minor in mathematics, for whatever that counts for), but only because some people have made so much of the claim that "mathematicians support this". Finally, "we like it and use it and you are free to ignore it" is never a good argument for keeping a category. There are guidelines to govern which categories should and shouldn't exist, and they exist for a reason. "[Some subset of] one special-interest group likes it" is never a valid argument. SparsityProblem 01:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I should have said "mathematicians typically and characteristically have interest in Erdos Numbers" and "the consensus among wikipidean mathematicians favors keeping the category". I didn't mean to imply that all mathematcians care about the issue, or like Erdos Numbers. One advocate of the promulgation of Erdos Numbers is Ron Graham, formerly president of the American Mathematical Society. It's a well known thing to us. And yes, I agree with you that mathematicians are more likely to understand mathematical culture (I'm not sure I get your point there). Finally, please point to the specific guideline that leads to categories like "people born in Ohio" or "in 1957" but not "Mathematicians with Erdos Number 2". Thanks, Pete St.John 21:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I still have no idea what your grounds are for "mathematicians typically and characteristically have interested in Erdos Numbers"; they're really something that's more of a curiosity enjoyed by dabblers in the subject. As for the specific guideline, see Wikipedia:Overcategorization: "In general, categorize by what may be considered notable in a person's life, such as their career, origin and major accomplishments". Birthdate and place of origin are notable in a person's life; Erdos number is notable in no one's life, except for that of Erdos. SparsityProblem 21:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "dabblers", see Ron Graham, formerly President of the AMS, as counterexample, mentioned above; coauthoring with Erdos is notable to mathematicians, see for example the maintenance of the databse at MathSciNet; and your parallel is off, it would be like saying "being born in NY is only notable to NY". Coauthoring with Erdos is notable in the same way that graduating from MIT is notable. Erdos is certainly not the only important coauthor, but his record-shattering number of collaborations (500+ coauthors?) makes him a conspicuous place to start for this kind of analysis. I don't purport that anything is perfect, only notable.Pete St.John 22:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The statement "coauthoring with Erdos is notable in the same way that graduating from MIT is notable" is unmitigated nonsense. Show me a CV belonging to a mathematics faculty member where they *specifically* mention having coauthored with Erdos (as opposed to listing such a paper on a list of all their publications). Even if that statement were accurate, it would mean that it would be fine to create categories for collaborators of all major mathematicians, in the same way that we have categories for alumni of major universities. Would you support that? Finally, your argument only suggests that the category "Erdos number 1" should exist, and says nothing about higher numbers. SparsityProblem 23:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you two please stop this? This is not really the place to argue the merits of the category, and you obviously have a fundamental disagreement about how policy applies in this case. Bickering with each other, accusing each other of things like speaking "unmitigated nonsense" is not helpful, and especially not when it's about something for the CfD, not a DRV. --Cheeser1 23:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The issue at hand is whether there's a "consensus among mathematicians" for keeping this category, but I admit that things have strayed a bit far afield from that. SparsityProblem 23:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn as keep/no consensus. I don't have much to say, as I think that others have already done a fine job of explaining why the categories are appropriate. Of course they are not very precise tests of prominence, and anyone who knows what an Erdős number is understands that they must be taken with a large grain of salt. Others have already explained, in the CfD and DRV, the advantages that categories have over lists in this case. I really see absolutely no reason to ignore the rough consensus in this case which favored keeping. 22:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by XDanielx (talk • contribs)
- Overturn, closer did not act appropriately when examining keep versus delete !votes. At best, it would have been a no consensus default to keep, not a straight-out delete. Arguments on the keep side were clearer than those on the delete side. Indeed, I agree with Daniel that there was no reason to ignore consensus, and the advantages of keeping this category outnumber the disadvantages, when particularly the disadvantages are not so clear. Ramsey's assertion above reinforces that fact. DEVS EX MACINA pray 00:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. If we have the space (and that's getting cheaper and cheaper) for all those ephemeral and non-notable soap and video game plot "articles" we certainly have space for well-written Mathematics articles. (And I have not been canvassed - I was a recent "victim" on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents where I noticed the impassioned debate.) I have now done what I should have done before, and read the rationale of the deleters. I'm now a very weak overturner because the close seemed contrary to consensus but I would then vote to oppose some of the later number categories. Sorry for being a Bimbo!Alice.S 01:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- This discussion is about a set of categories, not about an article. In addition, this comment isn't relevant as this discussion is solely about whether the closing admin acted correctly. Finally, even if this was the CFD rather than a DRV, "there's other stuff that sucks" is never a good argument for keeping a category or article. SparsityProblem 01:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. The closing admin gave no detailed reasoning at time of close, but later explained in detail at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 October 28. This explanation consists mostly of reasons that are wrong or irrelevant, and exhibits a fundamental misreading of guidelines for categories that is not in accord with actual practice. The problems mostly involve an incorrect definition of "defining characteristic". Examples of reasons that are simply wrong include "not all of those 8,000 people are notable enough to have Wikipedia articles". That in itself is telling, as that means that Erdos numbers are not defining, or else all of those 8,000 people would have WP articles; and "That nicely illustrates one of the fundamental problems of these categories, that they are grouping together individuals who have so little in common that only this exercise groups them". The first of these reasons is just stupefyingly bad, but you can apply either reason to Category:1983 births or Category:Massachusetts Institute of Technology alumni to see the obvious flaws. Other reasons don't make sense either, such as the claim that an Erdos number says more about a persons' collaborators than it does that person itself. Well, clearly Erdos number 1 says that one of your collaborators was Paul Erdos. The claim that an Erdos number says nothing about your status or skill as a mathematician manages to be both wrong and irrelevant. Wrong, because low Erdos numbers (especially 1) confer some status in the mathematical community, and irrelevant because there is no requirement that a category reflect status. Category:People from Ohio is not a reflection of any status conferred on its members. Quale 05:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Because I've been so bewildered at the implication that the closing admin was following consensus, I've been reading WP:CON in detail. I found this interesting statement: "A good sign that you have not demonstrated a change in consensus, so much as a change in the people showing up, is if few or none of the people involved in the previous discussion show up for the new one." So I decided to check. I did this manually, so it might be off, but of the 41 people involved in the previous CFD, only 5 showed up for the new one. Ntsimp 05:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- On top of that, I don't think the recent CfD was any stronger on the deletion side than the previous ones. Consensus in the last CfD was leaning significantly toward keeping the category, as with the previous ones. — xDanielx T/C 06:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn per Quale and Paul August. The rationales for keep were perfectly reasonable, and no consensus existed for deletion. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. There was no clear consensus for deletion. Closer seems to have said "well, the delete arguments convinced me", but that's not the definition of consensus. For deletion, the delete arguments needed to have convinced most experienced editors participating, not just the closing admin. It's pretty clear they didn't. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment These deletion-related pages seem have regular participants with a sort of culture, conventions, and language of their own. Can someone please translate "salt" into English? Michael Hardy 00:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Salting is the process whereby the page is prevented from being recreated under its present name. JodyB Roll, Tide, Roll 00:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- See also WP:SALT. --Cheeser1 02:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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