Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wilmette Wilbus

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I see a consensus to Keep this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wilmette Wilbus[edit]

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Fails WP:NCORP. References are ultra-local. Fan page by single author. scope_creep^Talk 10:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Transportation and Illinois. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 10:21, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep public-private company that was part of the local infrastructure -- clearly plenty of sources in newspapers for the region. This has historic value for that geography, and if not keep as independent, minimally needs to be integrated into a larger article about transport in that geography, Sadads (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The coverage fails WP:AUD, WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:ORGTRIV. It is a village bus service and to say it has historic value is a completely disengenous. scope_creep^Talk 12:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

News coverage of public transit agencies is always by the local newspapers. This holds for the major metro systems and suburban systems later taken over by the Regional Transportation Authority. Please see the sources in the articles about these large US agencies Chicago Transit Authority, New York City Metropolitan Transportation Authority, Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority, Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority

and this article about small town CyRide in Ames, Iowa. There may be a rare cite to Railway Age or Mass Transit Magazine, two industry publications for the very large transit agencies. Keep in mind that the New York Times is a local paper when it writes about the MTA. Major newspapers in other US cities do not pick up the local transit agency articles, nor write about other cities. It is a weak argument for deleting this topic, with its long list of newspaper citations. The news articles cited are legitimate secondary sources.

Further, the plan is to add sources after the article is up in Main space. That brings in more potential authors than the original two authors. The sources of interest are transportation journals about bus transit, to position this successful venture properly in the scheme of US bus systems. - - Prairieplant (talk) 01:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commment @Prairieplant: This is the area to to create the discussion. Please make your case based on policies as they apply to the article and quality of references. scope_creep^Talk 23:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will move the comments here that are now at the Talk page. Thank you for your help. - - Prairieplant (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the article

This article is up for speedy deletion. Please add your views. It is the story of a successful local bus service, initiated by a suburban town in 1974. Such success is not common. - - Prairieplant (talk) 13:22, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wilbus was a classic example of local government filling a hole created by the bankruptcy of a private company. Private bus services were failing in the early 1970s. Wilmette and several other Chicago suburbs created bus services to replace what the private sector could not do. The result was the preservation of bus service until the regional service provider was established. Deletion does not make sense for an article that is well documented by local newspapers and government records. Bobbustransit (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is an important historical story of grass roots efforts to bridge the gap in public provision of transit services. The setting is suburban, where public transit was, and continues to be, a wasteland because resources are limited and directed toward high population density areas and places where it is assumed that auto availability is the lowest. But this suburban market (different in demographics from the location itself) comprises people who largely cannot drive - do not have cars, or access to them, are too young or disabled. A creative service design, coming from transit expert volunteers, filled a critical gap, carried more riders than some medium size city transit operations, and helped show the public sector that quality service could draw a substantial market needing mobility services. Importantly, the key actors were themselves young, committed, and unconstrained. This became a de facto training ground leading to life-long careers for many of those involved. it is a story needing to be told. 2601:246:5F02:2320:F4BD:5A1C:C0EF:491F (talk) 20:21, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Prairieplant: How goes it? I came across your bus article. It seems to have a lot of excessively intricate detail in the article,almost like a fan page, that is perhaps is not suitable for Wikipedia Do a you have a connection with them? scope_creep^Talk 10:20, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

scope_creep The article is about the success of a local bus system initiated by a small suburban town that really wanted good local bus service after the private bus company was bankrupt. The town attracted interest from recent college grads trained in civil engineering who successfully bid the route design to the Village — rather than a long established consulting firm winning the bid. Not many towns have a success as this one did, success measured in rapidly growing ridership. The elements of that success are what interest me.

About 50 years ago, I had a summer job driving a bus there, no other connection. About 50 years ago in a different summer, I worked as a mail carrier — two good summer jobs prior to my professional career. The story of this suburb has always been of interest to me, long after my summer job.

Transportation, energy and the environment are some of my major interests, though most of my Wikipedia edits thus far are about literature or novels. This article follows from those major interests. I read the article about CyRide bus service in Iowa, used that as a bit of a model or guide as to the infobox and other aspects. I read other Wikipedia articles about large and small transit operators as well, all having the same detail about vehicles, routes, ridership, and fares and subsidies, with photos of the vehicles included. The difference is that the Wilbus routes were taken over by the regional suburban operator formed years later. I am hoping others add more detail, not less, including photos of the vehicles and a map. I have not learned how to add an appropriate map to a Wikipedia article, myself. I feel this is a notable topic, with references from news articles documenting the success. Further, the story is tied to active present day service I have not yet looked for suitable articles in transportation journals concerning bus system success.

Of course others may copy edit, find a clearer or more elegant way to make a point, that is inevitable and welcome.

Large transit agencies across the US have a similar history but on a larger scale. CTA in Chicago, MTA in New York City, among others, bought up failing private bus and rail companies, and then operated the transit service as units of local government in the era when the US turned so aggressively to private cars, public parking lots and large subsidies for streets and interstate highways. The private operators could not make it financially. Subsidy was unbalanced, limiting options. Those are stories I know well, issues of US transportation policy and the choices for travel in urban areas. It is a major topic in the fields of transportation, energy and the environment, how to run a successful transit operation.

What do you consider excessive detail in an article about a bus transit service? The article is up for others to edit, not to delete it, that was my notion. Prairieplant (talk) 12:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've sent it to Afd because it is ultra-local news and its bus service which comes under WP:NCORP. Wikipedia is not in the business of supporting local bus services. We are not a webhost. scope_creep^Talk 12:54, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wilbus marked a significant change in the way suburban cities responded to a transportation crisis. A regional option was not available and many suburbs jumped in as the private companies went bankrupt. This is a reasonable documentation of historical events, something that Wikipedia relies on and is in most of the Wikipedia articles. If you delete this one, you should delete the rest of Wikipedia that has any historic content. There is no way wikipedia is supporting local bus service. The service ended in 1985. Bobbustransit (talk) 13:41, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In January 1995, a long time ago. - - Prairieplant (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~KEEP~~ This article includes the Chicago Reader and the Chicago Tribune as sources, as well as the Wilmette paper that is tied to the Chicago Tribune through Pioneer Press. The term ultra local means nothing to me. WP:NCORP wants reliable sources, and those are reliable sources. - - Prairieplant (talk) 14:13, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

— Duplicate !vote: Prairieplant (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.[reply]

~~KEEP~~ Wikipedia is full of articles about cities, towns and villages. It is also full of articles about every public transit operator in the US, both large rail and bus systems, and bus-only systems that are providing service now, usually including the history of the service as well. Wilbus is the story of a past success; the lessons learned have been picked up by other bus networks, including the one in Ames, Iowa, called CyRide as one example among many college town bus systems. This objection to local places seems spurious to me, possibly specious, a thin reason for deleting the article. I consider the article a step up in improving the coverage of urban public transportation issues in Wikipedia. - - Prairieplant (talk) 02:55, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

— Duplicate !vote: Prairieplant (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.[reply]

You've already !voted to keep above. One !vote per editor, please. --Kinu ^t/_c 06:35, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Well developed and referenced article. We should have more of these! gidonb (talk) 13:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Per WP:AUD, significant coverage in media with an international, national, or at least regional audience (e.g., the biggest daily newspaper in any US state) is a strong indication of notability, and the major Chicago papers cited seem to support this. Ultimately, this article fills in gaps in the history that might otherwise be included at Regional Transportation Authority (Illinois) and/or Pace (transit). There are some issues with tone and detail that make portions read like a WP:FANSITE, but that can be addressed via cleanup. The statement above that "Wikipedia is not in the business of supporting local bus services" is somewhat of a non sequitur, as the service no longer exists. --Kinu ^t/_c 19:03, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.