Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucky Star (Gene Vincent song)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I'm agreeing with User:In ictu oculi and going to close this as no consensus. I work in the culture sector and a lot of sources often require digging. Let's assume good faith (like we do on DYK for example) about offline sources and improve before we delete. I am not opposed to a renomination, however. SarahStierch (talk) 02:43, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lucky Star (Gene Vincent song)[edit]

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I'm failing to see how this passes WP:NSONG. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 22:12, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NSONG starts:

"Songs and singles are probably notable if they have been the subject[1] of multiple, non-trivial[2] published works whose sources are independent of the artist and label."

The sources in the stub at the time of AFD were these

Derek Henderson Gene Vincent: A Companion 2005 Page 3 "Late 1961 Gene's last USA Capitol single Lucky Star/Baby Don't Believe Him released."
The Goldmine Roots of Rock Digest Goldmine Magazine 1999 Page 137 " "Lucky Star" b/w "Baby, Don't Believe Him" from the October '61 sessions," .In May, Vincent, who had remained in touch with Dave Burgess, an old friend who now ran Five Star Music and Challenge ... "Lucky Star" b/w "Baby, Don't Believe Him" from the October '61 sessions, followed in February 1969 with The Best Of ...
Michel Rose Pionniers du rock'n'roll 1981 Page 124 "On peut acquérir à la rigueur le sixième album Rick Is 21 (LP 9152) qui contient quelques bons titres, « Break my chain », « Sure fire belt », « Lucky star » (repris par Gene Vincent) et le célèbre « Hello Mary Lou »."

Without looking further into Google Books, do these 3 footnotes in the stub at the time of AFD not qualify as "multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the artist and label."? per WP:NSONG? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 03:08, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 03:08, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Gene Vincent as none of the sources seem to actually cover the song but just as mentions regarding Vincent's discography. Hardly the "subject" of multiple, non-trivial published works. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 06:50, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the mention of Lucky Star (Ricky Nelson song) does "cover" the song not merely list it. It isn't a listing it is a specific comment on the song saying it was one of Ricky Nelson's best tracks on Ricky is 21 and later picked up by Gene Vincent.

Also this AfD may deserve a longer listing given common factors with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lingdian (band), the same rationale on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raising of the son of the widow of Zarephath and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raising of the son of the woman of Shunem. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, L Faraone 05:46, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete All citations appear to be trivial mentions in passing, no more than a sentence in longer works. Also, I see no qualities in common between this deletion nom and the ones mentioned by In ictu oculi, could you explain further why they have relevance here? --Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 06:04, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The same editor also nominated 9 other articles all of which were speedy kept. I have expanded the section on the Ricky Nelson version, and added more material on the session putting it in the context of Vincent's interrupted tour. VanHecke, Susan Race With the Devil - Gene Vincent's Life p.153 In ictu oculi (talk) 13:31, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The first point verges on an ad hominem argument, and I fail to see why any pattern of AfD nominations affects whether this song is notable. To the second point, a lot of biographical material has been added and material on another artist, but the citations still appear to be passing mentions. I still don't see any of these cites as discussing the song itself in any depth. For example, the article for Do You Hear What I Hear? cites the composer's New York Times obituary, which spends the first three paragraphs discussing the song and its composition and impact. That is something I consider a non-trivial mention. I don't yet see that here. --Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:16, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is ad hominem, I'm saying we wouldn't be having this AfD if it hadn't been targeted because I was the article creator. The difference between Ricky Nelson and Gene Vincent on the one hand and Noël Regney is that Gene Vincent and to a lesser extent Ricky Nelson were major rock n roll artists and all of their singles stand a good chance of passing both WP:GNG and WP:NSONG, wheras the Christmas standard "Do You Hear What I Hear?" is the only reason Noël Regney would get a NYT obituary. That argument is apples and oranges.

Vincent produced many singles so a better comparison would be something from Category:2012 singles. Just to take the first ones mentioned 100 Proof (song), 1000nen, Zutto Soba ni Ite..., 12 dage, 12:51 (Krissy & Ericka song), 2 Reasons, 2012 Spark, 2nd Sucks, 3 Kings (Rick Ross song), 30 Days (song), 30 Minute Love Affair, 4 AM (Scooter song), 45 (The Gaslight Anthem song), 4th of July (Amy Macdonald song), 5-1-5-0, 50 Ways to Say Goodbye, 777 (We Can Sing a Song!), 93 Million Miles, 96 F**kries, 999 (song) do you think that these are on average more long term notable than the Gene Vincent song? This isn't pointed out per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS because I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that mention in Ricky Nelson and Gene Vincent's bios, particularly Vincent's is not just passing mention. This song session with his old friend Burgess while recuperating from the Glasgow collapse, and the way Burgess gave his song to two artists, and the way that Vincent featured this song with his fans in the UK, while his fan base in the US was eroding make the song worth keeping. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SarahStierch (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The article is only about six weeks old and already has more depth and better sourcing than most song articles I've seen. Since it's still a quite new article, it may still be WP:NOTFINISHED. Additional improvements have been made since the deletion consideration began. I suggest to give it a chance to mature further. For example, I would compare this to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/On My Way (song) in terms of depth of content and sourcing. That article had no depth whatsoever, and no references to establish notability (assuming that mere inclusion in lists is not adequate depth to establish notability). In fact the article contained no information at all about the song itself (and it still doesn't). It only discusses chart list positions and what the song's video shows. Yet, the outcome of the AfD was a clear "keep", and the article is still titled as the "primary song" for the title "On My Way", despite the presence of eight other songs with the same name discussed in Wikipedia articles. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:36, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-Internet era sources I'm requesting this closed as no consensus. One of the other issues with songs of this period is that magazines and newspapers of the time are generally not online, but on microfiche at libraries. That doesn't mean that a Gene Vincent single was ignored by the press of the day. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.