Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LGBT topics and Shinto

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was procedural close. Already closed by shii, closing properly. Rationale was Closed. Revoking this AfD request, this should be discussed on the article's talk page. Shii (tock) 02:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:12, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

LGBT topics and Shinto[edit]

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This is a patently ludicrous idea for an article. It's like asking what position of Japanese undertakers or Japanese museum curators is on homosexuality; in other words, a topic that is utterly irrelevant to the specialists, just as much as their own beliefs are irrelevant to Japanese society. Nothing can be said about it; nothing has been said in Japanese; and a quick search will discover no reliable sources anywhere. A similar article in American culture would be LGBT topics and wishing wells, or the AfD classic Judaism and bus stops. It doesn't even deserve a redirect to Homosexuality in Japan, as it is a highly unlikely topic. Shii (tock) 08:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: If this is so, then perhaps there should be an explanation of this (and why it's so--most non-Japanese readers might not understand why it's irrelevant to Shinto religious teachings) in the Homosexuality in Japan article. Instead of being deleted, the page/namespace could then be redirected to Homosexuality_in_Japan#Monastic_same-sex_love, which already has a discussion of the religious traditions in Japan. Or, an additional section could be added to that article to discuss the various religions' teachings apart from monastic culture. In other words, how can we incorporate a discussion of why the topic is not a big deal into current articles, rather than delete the topic entirely? I for one (not knowing a whole lot about Shinto) don't see how the topic is as silly as your examples of undertakers and curators, or of wishing wells and bus stops, and it would be useful to at least have some explanation of how the two topics do and don't overlap. Aristophanes68 (talk) 14:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.: I just added references from three academic sources that discuss the relationship between Shinto beliefs and practices and homosexuality. So it is not a completely irrelevant topic. Aristophanes68 (talk) 15:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice sources you found. I take issue with the first two. The first says "Shinto ... celebrates the sexual as an expression of nature". I'm not sure who "Shinto" is in this sentence or how they became a "Shinto", but in any case the relationship to homosexuality is purely speculative. The second says, according to you, that "under Shinto such affairs were often expressed as part of the samurai tradition of Shudo"; I have no idea what the "under Shinto" part of this is supposed to mean.

The third one is substantive, and was fun to research; the relevant pages of Male Colors: The Construction of Homosexuality in Tokugawa Japan, 32-33, basically state that shrines were neutral on the subject of sex, which makes sense, as e.g. palm readers are neutral on sexuality. Here also, as is often the case in Western academic writing, "Shinto" is used as a synonym for folklore. Google Books blocked me from looking up the reference for his own statement about kami, but Hachiman, Tenjin, etc. are all common kami and it's not clear to me how they would acquire homosexual connotations. The illustration on page 34 would be an excellent addition to the Homosexuality in Japan article but as you can see it is a lighthearted doodle that is not part of a religious text.

The sum total of this is that I will agree on two points: 1) a Tokugawa commentator on Japanese mytho-history made a joke that the first three generations of kami in the Nihongi must have had anal sex as they were all male; 2) drawing kami engaging in anal sex was an amusing pastime in the same period. I still believe this is an absurd basis for an article. I assure you that the one on Judaism and bus stops had much more material to work with. Shii (tock) 16:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The second source confused me a bit as well--"under Shinto" = what?? I've found and added some more sources; take a look at those and tell me what you think, since I'm relying on other people's scholarship. I think we can say that there are people who address the issue, even if only to show that it's really not been a huge deal within Shinto. You may be right that there's not enough there for a stand-alone article, but certainly there seems to be enough to turn the page into a redirect and include 2 or 3 paragraphs on the topic in the Homosexuality in Japan article. Would that solution be agreeable to you? I'm sure that somewhere, there's a college kid trying to write an essay on Homosexuality and Shinto, and we at least need something addressing the topic. Cheers, Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:10, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am okay with merging anything you find, I guess this would make a decent section in another article. By the way, I found the original source of that statement in Homosexuality and civilization -- it's page 210 of this book, which I'll have to look at myself. BTW, the story you linked about "the neutrality of homosexuality in Shinto" has nothing to do with Shinto because Shinto as a mode of thought did not exist when the Shinto mythologies were written (confusing, yes...). If anything that is a statement about the neutrality of homosexuality in classical Japanese society, which belongs firmly at the top of a history section of its article. Shii (tock) 17:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect into a new section of Homosexuality in Japan, based on the discussion here and the finding of several sources that do at least address the issue. A stand-alone article may not be warranted, but it would helpful to a discussion somewhere on the site and to have the page redirected to it. Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:45, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This is far from patently ludicrous, and I fail to see the comparison with Japanese undertakers. Shinto may not be a major world religion, yet it is still a world religion and I feel it is important to have articles exploring the relationship between these religions and contentious issues. And this is one such contentious issue. If this is to be deleted, then why not Christianity and homosexuality, LGBT topics and Islam or Lesbian and gay topics and Judaism? -- role^player 18:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think you understand Japanese society. I should have known better than to take this to AfD where people with no interest in the topic will comment on it. "Shinto is a world religion"... honestly... Shii (tock) 02:18, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep No policy-based reason has been given to warrant deletion. SanchiTachi (talk) 21:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.