Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heberto Andrade

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The question is whether or not bullpen catchers are coaches, because WP:NBASEBALL says that all coaches are notable. I have found reliable sources saying that bullpen catchers are not coaches ("He is listed with the coaches in the team's media guide, but he is not a coach.") and others that say they are ("They are technically members of the coaching staff", "began his coaching career as bullpen catcher") so as far as I am concerned there is no "right answer" and it comes down to community consensus, which here seems to favor keeping the article. (And for what it's worth, Coach (baseball)#Other coaches describes bullpen catchers as coaches.) Cerebellum (talk) 06:20, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Heberto Andrade[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Bullpen catchers aren't inherently notable, and this one doesn't seem to have the sources to pass GNG. Wizardman 21:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Venezuela-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Listed on team coaching staff page as a coach, that's good enough for me. Alex (talk) 03:51, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Despite what others claim, bullpen catchers aren't coaches any more than a batting practice pitcher is a coach, and this guy's bio at MLB.com makes it clear he isn't an actual coach. Also doesn't pass GNG. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 05:52, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Team lists him as a coach, so he's a coach. No reason to intentionally create red links on all these team roster pages by deleting bullpen catchers.Spanneraol (talk)

The team lists him WITH the coaches, not AS a coach, for reasons I've explained over and over again. Regardless, since when is a fear of creating "red links" a reason to keep a page that doesn't pass GNG? The clear, common-sense solution is to delete bullpen catchers from the roster pages. As I've explained a dozen times, MLB teams are only allowed seven uniformed coaches, and bullpen catchers specifically don't count as coaches. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 21:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I trust the closing admin will actually look at the weight of the comments rather than numbers, since right now none of the keep voters are going by guidelines at all. Wizardman 02:19, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:IGNOREALLRULES Alex (talk) 20:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More trollish behavior from Alex. You just posted in another AfD that bullpen catchers are coaches. If you believe that to be the case, why would we need to IGNOREALLRULES? - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 21:34, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can't win argument? Accuse others of trolling. Alex (talk) 01:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're the best-known troll in the baseball AfDs, by far. Also, I did win the argument. See the ESPN.com story in the Alan Butts AfD, which details MLB's seven-coach limit/rule. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 05:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A good profile of Andrade. [1] Spanneraol (talk) 15:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is the FIRST PARAGRAPH of the linked story: "One might not easily recognize the guy wearing No. 86 for the Pirates. He has no baseball card, and he is not even mentioned in the team's 368-page media guide." You want us to believe MLB and the team considers this guy a coach, but they don't even mention him in a 368-page media guide? - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 20:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. A bullpen catcher constantly provides valuable feedback to pitchers. Therefore logic dictates that they must have some sort of coaching skills. If not, teams would be using young minor league catchers for this duty. With the case of Andrade, he did work as a catching coach in international play. And to contradict the paragraph of the linked story, I have several Pirates' programs from Spring Training to the Regular Season between 2007 - 2014 and he is mentioned in all of them and is listed among the coaching staff. --Pennsylvania Penguin (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, "logic dictates" that bullpen catchers are bullpen catchers, NOT coaches. If they were coaches, they would 1) count against MLB's seven-coach limit and 2) have the word "coach" in their title. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 20:35, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If they weren't coaches, the teams would not list them as coaches on their roster. Rlendog (talk) 01:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep We decided the issue of bullpen catchers long ago. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dan_Williams for example. Kinston eagle (talk) 00:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closing admin Contrary to the above, nothing has been "decided" regarding bullpen catchers. The above AfD was a 6-4 keep! back in 2007, with multiple keep! voters using their own made-up interpretation of BASE/N. I have provided all sorts of proof that bullpen catchers aren't considered coaches by MLB, which certain people here are ignoring. If bullpen catchers were coaches, they would 1) count against MLB's seven-coach limit (which they currently do not), 2) have "coach" in their title, like EVERY OTHER COACH IN MLB, and 3) generate sufficient media citations such that BASE/N would be irrelevant, because the subjects would pass GNG. Not a single Wiki page for a current MLB pitching coach, hitting coach, bench coach, first base coach, third base coach, or bullpen coach is relying on BASE/N to justify the Wiki page's existence — every single one of them passes GNG based on media coverage. If bullpen catchers were really coaches, they, too, would generate huge amounts of media coverage, which all of these guys lack. (There are five pending AfDs for bullpen catchers, and not a one of them passes GNG based on media citations, which should tell us something about their notability.) It's time to use some common sense here. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 05:14, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're opinion is certainly noted... you dont need to comment on EVERY vote you disagree with. Spanneraol (talk) 12:30, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The Pirates list him - though not the batting practice pitcher - as a coach. If they regarded him as non-coach other staff they would list him there. [2] So I would follow the team's own classification. Rlendog (talk) 01:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.