The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 17:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This article has only one reference, which leads to a blank page. Furthermore, a google search on the name Christopher Rojas reveals this wikipedia entry as the first result, followed by a number of social networking sites and other community sites that do not prove any notability. This reads like a CV, without much to support the claims. Delaque (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed from weak to strong once I found his discography and counted the number of platinum records he was involved in. WP:MUSICBIO does not demand articles or interviews of the subject. Further, it specifically allows him to be "credited as one of 20 or more people in the production" as that IS an ensemble... all the IS required is that he meet ANY ONE of the multiple attributed isted.. and he sure does. Schmidt,MICHAEL Q. 07:41, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Of the five links on Google news, two are from the Philippines, one from Malaysia and two are about another person. None of the articles are available without registration or payment, but it seems the name is mentioned in passing. Of the ones at straight Google first page, at least 4 seems to be catchall sites with little or no content, and where Rojas is credited (which he indeed is at a couple of places), he is credited as one of 20 or more people in the production. At no place could I find any articles or written interviews with Mr. Rojas. Delaque (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Concerns with the nom stating that the article's reference led to a blank page... when I was easily able to access the Christopher Rojas discography at All Music Guide. Strange. Songs composed by him, and his list of credits. It might seem that the assertions of notability were easy to find if one looked: Platinum album: I'm Not Dead, It seems that this artist should easiily easily pass several of the criteria (only one being required) at WP:MUSICBIO which states "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:" (my emphasis)... and I again suggest expansion and sourcing rather than deletion. Schmidt,MICHAEL Q. 07:04, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article reference was incorrect at the time. I made no claim that the person was impossible to find by other means than the supplied link. Thank you for adding the correct one to the article. I would say that to be included in an ensemble, one would have to have a more permanent affiliation with the artist than being a studio musician, and in my mind, having five different credits on a single work of art makes it less likely that any of those roles were a significant one. Delaque (talk) 08:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nominator, there is insufficient notability here per our guidelines. JBsupreme (talk) 07:41, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For the Platinum recordI'm Not Dead he was "violin, engineer, mixing, keyboard, and programmer". Did you somehow miss that? Schmidt,MICHAEL Q. 07:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
POINT OF INFORMATION: there was no "first" AfD. The article is only a few days old. The tag of this being a "2nd" is misleading. Schmidt,MICHAEL Q. 08:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the [deletion of Christopher Rojas|User page] you will see that there is a proposed deletion notice there for this article from Nov 30, 2008. I might have misunderstood the instructions on how to do the next step and chosen the wrong template, thereby claiming a 2nd AfD incorrectly. If so, I apologize. However, if the page is only a couple of days old, I can only assume that is because it has already been removed at least once previously. Delaque (talk) 08:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then by all means please provide the link to that previous deletion discussion... because a check of the author's contributions do not show any such article being created in November... nor does the history of User:JasonGrand show that he prodded anything as asserted. This is quite the mystery. Thank you. Schmidt,MICHAEL Q. 08:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was not involved in the original debate, and since I had no reason to mistrust the authenticity of the notice on the Author's talk page, I made no attempts to find the page. Indeed, I assumed that the page had been there all this time, and that the prod had been removed previously, with the current page being at least that old. Delaque (talk) 09:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After a little bit of poking around, I found the deletion in the logs, by User:Buckshot06, (WP:PROD, reason was 'notability, no reference links, article reads like advertising '.) I can't be sure the page looked the same then, of course.
Thank you for that... pity the discussion is no longer available. Schmidt,MICHAEL Q. 10:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I understand PROD correctly, there most likely was no discussion, or at least no objections, because anyone objecting to the removal would have simply had to remove the relevant tag from the page. Delaque (talk) 10:29, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It is also worth pointing out that the author uploaded a picture of Christopher Rojas on January 9, 2007, with the comment '(photo by Christopher Rojas (myself)', which would make this a verified likely autobiography.
Yes. Wikipedia discourages autobiographies.HOWEVER.... and now that the article belongs to Wiki... if an assertion is being made that per WP:MUSICBIO this individual was part of a band or group or ensemble that had a charted hit on any national music chart, OR had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country, OR released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels, OR contains at least one notable musician, OR won or been nominated for a major music award, OR Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, 'inclusion on a compilation album', then that person is notable... even without having writen coverage in media as is the usual case, as WP:MUSICBIO does not require it... only that any ONE of the listed criteria be met.
I would still say that this person is not part of the ensemble just because they are a studio musician, there is a difference between touring with the artist, and simply appearing with an instrument credit on an individual song. I can't see how this would constitute notability.
When it comes to composing, of the three current references to platinum selling albums on the subjects page, none of these is as a composer according to allmusic.com (see my previous point). (Although, he has partial composer credits for a bonus track on the Backstreet Boys album Never Gone, according to tripatlas.com). I don't know that all songs on a notable album automatically qualify as notable, but if "Song for the unloved" is notable in and of itself, then the person is notable according to WP:MUSICBIO, which as far as I can tell claims that the song itself, rather than the album it was on, needs to have achieved notability on it's own. I don't believe this is the case here, however. Delaque (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MUSICBIO states: "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any ONE of the following criteria: 3. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country. He went platinum, he deserves to be on wikipedia. Why are you exerting so much energy, nitpicking and wikilawyering to delete other editors contributions? travb (talk) 03:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The article will benefit from editing, not erasure. Notability appears to be confirmed. Ecoleetage (talk) 13:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closing admin: I am currently involved in revising the article to address concerns brought up here at the AfD and at the talk page for Notabilty (music). It may be deleted before all improvements are in (unless relisted to give me more time), so I ask that if it IS to be deleted, it be userfied to User:MichaelQSchmidt/workspace Christopher Rojas. Thank you. Schmidt,MICHAEL Q. 21:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
STRONG KEEP/SPEEDY KEEP
Note to closing admin: The article has been completed reworked and edited recently, with several well referenced sources. travb (talk) 01:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing an article is always good, of course. However, the main point of the discussion, although starting out with source problems has since moved on to the notability of the subject based on those sources. No further evidence of notability has come up as part of the rewrite, who still doesn't meet the WP:MUSICBIO notability guidelines. Listing lots of non-notable contributions does make the page look meatier, but doesn't increase the notability of the subject himself. Delaque (talk) 02:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As per Schmidt above: "On the Platinum record I'm Not Dead [Christopher Rojas] was [a] "violin[ist], engineer, mixing, keyboard, and programmer" WP:MUSICBIO states: "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any ONE of the following criteria: 3. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country. "Wikipedia was like a giant community leaf-raking project in which everyone was ...a groundsman...And then self-promoted leaf-pile guards appeared....who would look ...at your...handful and shake their heads, saying that your leaves were too crumpled or too slimy or too common, throwing them to the side." travb (talk) 02:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As per the discussion above, the subject hasn't, neither as a part of an ensemble nor on his own, had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country. The notability for this record goes to the recording artist, not to the studio musicians or other supporting cast involved in one or a few of the songs on the record. This is a misinterpretation of (at least) the wikipedia definition of ensemble. Further discussion that is interesting and relevant to this discussion can be found on the WP:MUSICBIO Talk page. Delaque (talk) 01:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
