Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arsenal and Chelsea football rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No Consensus to delete. Eluchil404 (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arsenal and Chelsea football rivalry[edit]

Fails WP:SYN; the article subject is a thesis woven together from various articles which don't make the case directly, along with incidental reference from a source which doesn't look to be reliable. See also the AfD for the content fork by the same original author. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:05, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Per nom. Hubschrauber729 (talk) 01:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into London derbies. Lugnuts (talk) 08:11, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, it's not actually considered to be a London derby outwith this article. That's the rationale behind deleting it as original research. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying - delete then. 12:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Delete - this is not a notable football rivalry. – Pee Jay 08:57, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - not an established football rivalry. Giant Snowman 13:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as synthesis. Stifle (talk) 20:14, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't understand the rational. I am dyslexic, maybe you could explain what you mean in a bit more simpleton! Also, I would consider this an important now-days London rivalry although in the way of table clashes for the title. 3 points can effect the top of the table in different ways. Besides, it is by far a better article over London derbies and has some citation even if it is not very good. Govvy (talk) 21:14, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I lean towards keep, I disagree with the rational also. The article is perfectly valid, comes with some citation although poor. Could do with a lot more constructive edits and more citation which is probably widely available. Govvy (talk) 10:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge with Arsenal football/Chelsea football/London derbies. Absolutely no effort to WP:PRESERVE the article before deletion nomination. Article has several footnotes, including Times of London. Ikip (talk) 12:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The first reference establishes that Chelsea fans consider Arsenal to be their major rivals. I can find multiple other sources establishing notability for the rivalry with a trivial search: [1] [2] are the first two I found, taking me under two minutes. The claim that this is not an established rivalry or not notable is clearly and demonstrably wrong. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as it has a brief mention in London derbies. This article is not really needed. DeMoN2009 11:45, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I am a casual soccer fan and I am aware of the rivalry. The article is infomative on a notable subject. It could stand improvemeent and may have limited interest but it should not be deleted--Buster7 (talk) 13:19, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep pretty prominent rivalry among two world wide famous clubs, moreso now as both are very successful. Has a times reference. There will be others. I suspect a merge will make the London derebies page huge (if all rivalries are fleshed out) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment really just for the closing admin; the "Times reference" given in the article is this page here. Note that it is two paragraphs long, and makes absolutely no reference to this subject. Two of the keeps above specifically mention it, so it's worth pointing out that it's totally invalid by means of measuring how strong that argument is. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note that neither of the two references I provided to establish notability are the Times reference. And that mine took me minutes to find - I'm sure I could find more if people needed it. In fact, if finding more than two is going to be the deciding factor in someone's close, please let me know and I'll do it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - AfD isn't for articles that can easily be sourced (see Phil Sandifer's sources). Clean this up instead of deleting it. The subject is notable, I don't see what the problem is. Whether or not it is a London derby is immaterial to this article's notability. Heck, I'll go find more sources anyway. SMSpivey (talk) 22:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - For the record, (I'm not going to bother to vote ), it certainly is a London derby. Both teams are in London and are most certainly "London teams". The reliable sources are a map of London, and the postal addresses of the two clubs. There are no special criteria other than that. I merely point out that it's barely a cogent, let alone valid assertion to say it is not a London derby. As a Londoner and Arsenal fan, I found it quite amusing that someone stated otherwise. No, I'm not a "reliable source", but the burden of proof would be on the naysayer I think.

As for the Times article, I hate to admit Arsenal care about Chelsea at all, but the fact the transfer was acrimonious does imply a rivalry. Especially as a transfer involving Tottenham Hotspur was mentioned as context.

How do you "measure" a rivalry? The fans. The Football Fan's Census given as a source is as reliable as you will get, the results would have been published in some national newspapers, the rivalries on page 3 are indubitably accurate and most are common knowledge to the average English football fans who were not part of the sample. Also, I can say (no source other than I could ask my mates) that Chelsea are definitely widely regarded as Arsenal's third rivals, although it would have certainly been less clear cut six years ago (before Chelsea got Roman Abromovich's money, and won the league twice). So, can you then say it is established?

I'm sure there must also be archived articles that mention Arsenal and Chelsea as "rivals" at [3]

Another way to measure if a rivalry is "established" is the number of league games they have played against each other over a certain period. Considering teams play on average twice a season, and that Chelsea get relegated now and then, an average of once a season over fifty years would sound established to me (I'm sure in this case it's much more than fifty, and over nearer ninety years). That would imply fairly regular meetings, between two clubs from the same town or city, both with large support.

The material is out there to draw your own conclusions. I will only add that Arsenal fans don't consider Chelsea as established as us in any respect, certainly not "established rivals", and I'm not voting, partly through conflict of interest. Ddawkins73 (talk) 10:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.