Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Orthodoxy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. As people seem to be pretty unified on renaming this page, feel free to start a move discussion on the article's talk page. (non-admin closure) Jdcomix (talk) 21:06, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Orthodoxy[edit]

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This is an article that has been tagged for some time as lacking decent citations. In particular, it has no citations to any text using the term "anti-Orthodoxy", leading me and other editors to conclude it is a neologism not used in the real world. Searching Google Scholar, Google Book and Google News generates no instances of the term being used in anything like the way the article suggests. Therefore the material in it can only have been included in the article as a result of original research and synthesis. No articles link to this one, except via the many sidebars it has been added to tendentiously. BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:16, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yo @Bobfrombrockley: you forgot to add your own vote! --Calthinus (talk) 22:14, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: In this edit at 02:49, February 15, 2018 Calthinus altered their vote below from Delete or rename to Rename. This may change the apparent interpretation of comments below which preceded this change. Mathglot (talk) 07:05, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now changed back to avoid confusion as apparently I violated something... --Calthinus (talk) 20:08, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or rename and replace with a disambiguation page. Here's what I observe based on google, earlier posted to the Talk page:

 a lot of 3000 or so Google results [[1]] seem to suggest that the word has a different definition -- meaning "sentiment that opposes established thought", not the Orthodox Christian faith. These seem much more common in books and other preferable sources actually [[2]][[3]][[4]]. Results are also including a large percentage of links about hostility to Orthodox Judaism (like this [[5]][[6]]). And the main actually reputable sources that are using this term use it in the Soviet context it seems where you have atheists of the same ethnicity and nationality persecuting Orthodox Christians for clearly non-national reasons, which is curiously entirely absent from this page. --Calthinus (talk) 07:04, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

... as you can see the phrase "anti-orthodoxy" seems to refer to anti-establishment views most of the time, or it can mean hostility to Orthodox Judaism, with some rarer uses actually against Orthodox Christianity in obscure academic papers that discuss the Soviet Russian context. I thus propose replacing this page with a disambiguation page that points to anti-establishment, anti-Judaism, and perhaps Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union#Policy_towards_Orthodoxy. --Calthinus (talk) 22:17, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep There is not a single reason for DELETING this article. The subject of this article (persecution of Orthodox Christians) is quite valid. We have similar articles for Anti-Catholicism and Anti-Protestantism, so why should we DELETE article that deals with negative sentiments towards Orthodox Christians? Besides that, explanations offered above as "arguments" for deletion are 100 % focused on the present TITLE, but issues regarding titles are not dealt by deleting entire articles. Since the term "anti-orthodoxy" (with small o) is actually quite common and widely used as technical term for various negative attitudes towards any kind of orthodoxy, I think that present title of this article (Anti-Orthodoxy) could be improved. Since we have general article Persecution of Christians, the title of that article could be also used as a model for possible solutions in this case. For example, present title of the article in question here (Anti-Orthodoxy) could be changed to "Persecution of Orthodox Christians" or something like that. Sorabino (talk) 23:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep While I agree the current title is not ideal, "Persecution of Orthodox Christians" yields plenty of significant results [7]. I thus suggest keeping the article and renaming it to Persecution of Orthodox Christians. After all, "Persecution of..." type articles seem to be all the rage these days. Khirurg (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the topic is notable, article could be better structured, agree that the name Persecution of Orthodox Christians would allow for more scope to deal with Orthodox Christian persecution, as other Christian denominations have articles like Anti-Catholicism, Anti-Protestantism etc. However the claim made here that Persecution of articles in wiki are "all the rage" omits that some of those wanting to keep this article initiated a AfD process to delete [8] a wiki Persecution of article when it comes to Muslims. Just sayin' Resnjari (talk) 00:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be fine with Persecution of Orthodox Christians, while this page becomes a disambig page. Preferably with a lot of the stuff on this page removed as much of it does not actually refer to persecution of Orthodox Christians. And also with all its little POV catchphrases like "persecution by Roman Catholicism" removed. There's plenty of stuff that is actually relevant that is not here (like Communism which is astonishingly unmentioned...)For some reason, I had thought such a page already separately existed when I voted, I remembered seeing one, but now it seems to redirect here...--Calthinus (talk) 00:31, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and rename – The current title is not only not ideal, it is highly surprising, and has an anti-least-astonishment effect. Reading the section title for this conversation in the ToC, I just assumed it was about ideas or people who were antiorthodox, in the dictionary definition of the word. Wiktionary gets it right; it should be renamed, but the subject is certainly notable and has sufficient sources. WP:AT says, The title indicates what the article is about and distinguishes it from other articles, but this article title doesn't do that, so to that extent, I agree with Calthinus; and I can't separate the Keep part from the rename part, which is why I bolded them together. If consensus is to keep the current title, then I change my !vote to Delete. Mathglot (talk) 02:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep and rename to Persecution of Orthodox Christians for the same reasons Calthinus and Mathglot provided. The current title is awful, ambiguous, and not clear at all. Rewriting/removing some parts of the article might be needed, too. byteflush _Talk 03:16, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or rename: As Calthinus pointed out, I neglected to add my own vote when nominating. However, I think that renaming would probably address my concerns equally well.BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and Rename: The article name is problematic, and those arguing against it, got a point. It should be renamed in the same way the other articles are named. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 13:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or rename If the article is renamed, some of the current stuff should be deleted. The persecution of some people of Orthodox faith might happen for a variety of reasons, and not necessarily because of their faith. It appears this is the case with some of the events described in the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this debate categorized as an AfD about "Games or Sports"???--Calthinus (talk) 18:42, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is highly anti-orthodox categorization!

Vanjagenije (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Obviously a hatnote would clarify that this is about Orthodox Christianity and not any other "Orthodoxy" (also, Persecution of Catholics redirects to Anti-Catholicism). But I do not oppose a renaming.--Zoupan 19:07, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Choosing the correct title clarifies what the article is about; hatnotes are not fixer-uppers for bad titles. (Also, "anti-Catholicism" is unambiguous and about religion, thus sufficiently precise, whereas "antiorthodox" is unambiguous and not about religion, thus incorrect.) Mathglot (talk) 11:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural note There is no such thing as "Delete or rename". These two terms are mutually exclusive (if an article is deleted, it cannot be renamed, if an article is renamed that means it was not deleted). I notice all 3 "delete" votes are essentially that, but it can't be both ways. It's either delete or rename. And this is not a move request, but an AfD. Khirurg (talk) 23:18, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural comment: I didn't vote that way, but saying that "the two terms are mutually exclusive" does nothing to invalidate the logic of a "Delete or rename" preference, the way I see it. Voting "Delete and rename", would be a different story, of course. Putting my mind-reading cap on, I think it's basically a Not Keep-as-is vote, and leaving it up to consensus whether that means Delete, um, or Rename; but I take your point about that not being strictly among the options on an Afd discussion. Mathglot (talk) 07:28, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.