Talk:Nutmeg/Archive 1

Accuracy dispute

Might be worth adding the account of William S. Burroughs, from his published paper on being a drug addict. His comment was that of all the drugs he ever tried, only nutmeg had effects so bad that he only tried it once. Another addict commented that nutmeg was so bad that nutmeg addiction would be impossible - death would result first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.54.39 (talk) 00:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I am an herbalist, and I can tell you nutmeg can make you high. As, an herbalist I had heard about nutmegs ability to make you high but had never experienced this for myself, and had eaten plenty of nutmeg in and on desserts. I too recognized some discrepncy in information, and actual experience. One of my regular experiences with nutmeg was at my stops for a Starbuck's Chai Frappaccino Grande. After they make it for me I always peel off the lid to expose the whip cream and then I literally cover the white foam in the orange brown of nutmeg. At one point I decided to experiment with making my own Starbucks at home, and purchased all the elements for this, including the nutmeg. Having the nutmeg in my house I found countless other uses for it, like on top of vanilla ice cream, and even just a sprinkle over my glass of soymilk. Over a two day period of time I used nutmeg in large amounts in various foods, and by the third I began to notice that I was feeling high. And then I was feeling very high. I didnt at first put the two together, until after many hours of being undeniablly high, it truly felt that I had smoked a joint, and I hadnt. The high was long and lasted two days. Nutmeg is a great herb/spice to use for anxiety. You dont have to use it to the point of feeling high, even just a little will support you. It turns out it takes alot of nutmeg to get you high, but once you get there you can maintain it by a more regular dose of it. It can also be toxic, if you use large amounts all the time. Everything in moderation.Sfrankly (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC).

Herbalism is unscientific mumbo jumbo. Being "an herbalist" does not qualify you to speak about anything really. In fact you're more likely to do harm than good by making people avoid real medical attention etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.231.234 (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a reference to the person who supposedly died from nutmeg, is there information about this somewhere else that is reliable? It seems like an autopsy or coroners report could give the cause of death is this was for real... I'd assume just remove the part about someone dying and just leave the known stuff about nutmeg being a mild hallucinogen. Any problems with that? --Fxer 17:01, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

I ate nutmeg as sweets (fresh nutmegs put into liquified sugar) almost everyday through my childhood days, and I don't feel anything of this nonsense mentioned in the article. And it's not just 3 grams that people usually sold at the market, but a huge packs of it. It's not addictive in a bad way, it's addictive like I was eating a cheese cake. --ephi 14:16, August 8, 2005 (GMT+7)

That's original research, thus not an acceptable cite for the article. Wyss 19:10, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think he's proposing to put it in the article, Wyss. He's just questioning the article's accuracy based on his own experience. As for the story, I find it hard to believe that ephi was eating whole nutmegs. I ate 1.5 nutmegs as a 24-year-old, while sober, and became paranoid, dizzy, and hopped-up for 24 hours, with horribly blood-shot eyes, as a result. In retrospect, even the small amount which is commonly used in carrot cake used to make me giddy as a child. Additionally, I read an account somewhere of an 8-year-old who died after eating 2 nutmegs - probably a very rare occurrence, but not surprising that it would happen to somebody. Nutmeg containers should most definitely carry a warning label. A5 04:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Whenever I've bought powdered nutmeg in Finland the packaging has warned not to eat uncooked or in large doses (it has never actually said how large a dose is too large however) --Hellahulla 22:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

A whole nutmeg is about 7 grams. Were you having more than one? You may simply not have had enough, or perhaps you metabolized it faster as a child, or simply built up a resistance. I don't think a single personal experience makes that section of the article nonsense. --TomaydoDemato 02:11, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

By many accounts, even a single nutmeg will not produce any effects in everyone. Also, some people describe the effects as involving profound hallucinations while others describe only subtle effects. From my informal research, I've found that the most common description is "a combination of flu and a marijuana buzz", which I like to think few people would attribute to nutmeg if they overdosed on it accidentally (i.e. through ingestion of food containing nutmeg). Also note that many drugs affect people differently if taken on an empty stomach, if taken all at once, if freshly ground vs. preground, etc. In summary: people who are trying to get high off of nutmeg are going to a) take measures to get the most profound effect, b) take a lot of it, and c) pay attention to the effects. That said, the majority of the sites I'm referring to are completely unsuitable as references on Wikipedia. But as for it's general psychoactivity, it is fairly well documented. Mistercow 20:28, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

References: It's easy to find references. Google Scholar is your friend. Here's some stuff I just found using Medline/Pubmed.

There is a lot of description of psychoses, hallucinations etc induces by nutmeg. Ref. [1] tells about a 16-year old boy, who developped neurological symptoms and certain ECG changed after eating too much nutmeg. In [2], psychiatrists report a similar case, [4] as well. In [3], ER staff is warned to be aware of the possibility of nutmeg poisoning.

But it seems very rare that somebody dies. In [5], a forensic physicians reports about having found myristicin in a deseased as likely cause of death.

I'm not a medical professional, just a scientist in an unrelated field, hence I feel anuble to judge the articles. But the sheer amount of such articles -- I've found tens with abstracts telling about this with just a superficial search -- shows to me that the facts in the article are fully plausible. I suggest removing the dispute box.

[1] McKenna A, Nordt SP, Ryan J.: Active Nutmeg Poisoning. Eur J Emerg Med. 11 (2004) 240

[2] Kelly BD, Gavin BE, Clarke M, Lane A, Larkin C.: Nutmeg and psychosis. Schizophr Res. 60 (2003) 95

[3] Demetriades AK, Wallman PD, McGuiness A, Gavalas MC. Low cost, high risk: accidental nutmeg intoxication. Emerg Med J. 22 (2005) 223

[4] Sangalli BC, Chiang W.Toxicology of nutmeg abuse. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 38 (2000) 671

[5] U. Stein, H. Greyerb and H. Hentschel: Nutmeg (myristicin) poisoning — report on a fatal case and a series of cases recorded by a poison information centre. Forensic Science International 118 (2001) 87

Simon A. 15:57, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

So I've rm'd the dispute tag. Wyss 19:10, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the fellow way above who is referring to haven eaten nutmeg sweets is mistaking the fruit or the Pericarp of the plant that produces nutmeg with the nutmeg itself. In many countries, the pericarp is cooked in sugar syrup and candied. There's very little risk of toxicity or intoxification eaten this way and technically, that's not even eating nutmeg. LiPollis (talk) 15:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I find it amusing that people assume I'm a guy. :) Regarding the pericarp, you are correct. In my language, we refer to the fruit as a whole unit, instead of the seed only.Ephi (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Konj256 (talk) 19:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 'In low doses, nutmeg produces no noticeable physiological or neurological response. Large doses of 2g per 1 kg (say, an individual weighing 65 kg (143.3 lbs) would have to consume 130 grams) of body weight or more are dangerous, potentially inducing convulsions, palpitations, nausea, eventual dehydration, and generalized body pain[1] In large amounts it is a reputed to be a strong deliriant.' The dosage information is unsupported and should be removed or replaced.

History

I think the following quote from Regan is fun and should be included: ``You can't have good eggnog without nutmeg. [Laughter] And he said, ``You can't have Christmas without eggnog. So, the Soviets and the Cubans were out to steal Christmas.[1]

Vandalism, or just bad writing?

So, I noticed while reading through this article that, while the piece gives a clear picture of how nutmeg is used in some types of cooking, when one reaches the bit about European cooking, it simply says "In European cooking, balls." I'm not sure if this is meant to mean that nutmeg is somehow used in a ball form in European cooking and the sentence is badly written, or if this is just vandalism. Just wanted to call some attention to it. 69.205.47.112 21:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It was vandalism that was reverted more than six hours before your note was posted. You may wish to refresh your browser cache. --Allen3 ^talk 22:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Selling hallucinogens in supermarkets...?

It seems like there isn't enough evidence to support the reported cases of nutmeg "poisoning" and "psychosis." I personally find it unlikely that if the substance (i.e. ground nutmeg) was so dangerous (dangerous enough to be lethal) it would be sold in supermarkets. I have a jar of the stuff sitting in my spice drawer. Would it kill me if I threw it back like a shot of medicine? Is there anyone willing enough to take a spoonful in the name of science? I think research needs to be done on this.

Plenty of 'dangerous' substances can be found in supermarkets. Like bleach, for example. But you're likely limiting the argument to substances which are originally intended for human consumption -- in which case, there are still plenty of examples. Lots of supermarkets around here sell cigarettes, which are meant for human consumption (via smoking). However, chances are you'd die from nicotine poisoning if you ate five of those cigarettes.

Methinks you'd be amazed at the nasty things one can do with stuff snatched up at the local hypermarket. Wyss 19:12, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I for one have tried and experienced the drug-like effects of nutmeg, with a combination of alcohol and a small dose of marijuana, 4 teaspoons of freshly ground nutmeg knocked me on my ass for the next 16 or so hours, in which i spent sleeping. The following 3 - 4 days were spent in a state of constant dizziness and paranoia. Definately not an experience i would like to repeat. --Kieran 21:25, 6 September 2005 (GMT+12)

yeah i ate only 1 tbs of nutmeg a few hours after consuming psilocybin and it greatly potentiated the effects. -matt

Uhm, with all due respect that's original research. Anything edited into the article (along the lines of recreational abuse of supermarket purchases or whatever) must be credibly cited from a reliable secondary source. Wyss 15:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

here is one http://www.erowid.org/plants/nutmeg/nutmeg_info3.shtml also on a side note, nutmeg is not very pleasurable -matt

I've tried raw nutmeg as well. I've found that the coarseness has an impact on the effect, i.e when ground in a coffee grinder the same amount has a greater impact than chopped by hand. About 2.5 nutmegs chopped by hand will, after an initial mild headache and/or stomachache, produce effect similar to mild to moderate marijuana intoxication. However, the effect do last for about 36 hours which I found disconcerting. On an unrelated note, the reference to the 5 year old fatality is from 1903. If this was really accurate it shouldn't be hard to find something a little more current. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.21.196.64 (talk) 04:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Category:Psychosis

• Does anyone see any use in having this article part of the Category:Psychosis ? I understand that "nutmeg psychosis" is a valid condition, but "nutmeg" itself looks a bit strange sitting among its psychotic siblings. --Dystopos 00:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Doesn't make sense to me either. I'll remove the category tag. --Xyzzyplugh 02:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Drug effects

Removed this section as it was based largely on an uncorroborated posting by an individual at this Erowid page, without medical verification - see disclaimer at the bottom of that page - MPF 00:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Err... Sorry, I guess? I myself have browsed through the erowid articles for hours at a time, and have tried nutmeg a few times. Shouldn't we have a section about its drug effects other than just the risks? And no, I didn't have medical verification, my bad. Sorry. Still, I didn't say "this was how it always happens" I just said "many claim this" or "many claim that." Well, uncalled for or not I believe we should have a section, whether it is created by me, a medical professional, or an admin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KnightValor (talk • contribs) 02:13, May 12, 2006 (UTC)

• This problem is not that a description on nutmeg's halucinagenic effects are inappropriate but that Wikipedia:Verifiability requires that all information be verifiable from reputable sources. As Erowid accepts anonymous contributions it fails to qualify as a reputable source. --Allen3 ^talk 02:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah. I see. Sorry to waste your time...

However, we really do need a section about common drug effects. While I hate to ask others to do work for me, I would like to ask any medical professionals with spare time to properly research and document results.

I think this section is important and should be a part of the main in article. It has been well documented that nutmeg has been used by people as a drug for a very long period of time.

GOT IT!!! Nutmeg contains 2 psychoactive chemicals "Nutmeg and mace contain two halluncinogenic substances: Myristicin and Elemicin" according to this site (http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/180/hallucin.html) and when you do a quick google of it there is a wikipage about those substances being in Nutmeg and that they do in fact have psychoactive properties. So we should have a psychoactive section in this article about Nutmeg containing psychoactive chemicals. RYNORT 07:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Negative Effects

I would like to ask whoever found and added this to the page to include the weights of the specimens. We all know that giving 7.5g to a toddler would have stronger effects than 7.5g to someone who weighs more than 300 pounds. Or am I wrong about this? edit:0.75g to 1.25g per 10 pounds of the user —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.103.223 (talk) 21:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Deadly?

Nutmeg is an important and tasty spice in many sweet foods, and I don't think it has ever given me any strange side effects...

You didn't eat enough. Believe me, I experienced the side effects and they weren't too nice 213.219.152.72 23:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Experience of a friend

If it helps with the betterment of this article, I'd like to share with you that a close friend of mine consumed 5 tablespoons of nutmeg in a glass of root beer to experience the infamous nutmeg 'trip.' Unfortunately, he was under researched on the event. I supervised him for a good portion of the night till he insisted I go home, and he get some sleep. By morning he was seeing distorted images, and felt dizzy and lightheaded. At work later he went completely numb from head to toe and called someone to take him to the hospital. He spent 8 hours in the ER and had a heart rate of 192, and almost went into cardiac arrest. This happened last night and today. T'was a scary happening, and I don't recommend it. JayPetey 07:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

5 tablespoons?? ...he was lucky. But thank you for the story, if it won't help the article (WP:NOR), at least it will be informative to those who view the talk page. -kotra 23:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda

Is it just me or is the whole Risks paragraph about "Author and ecopsychologist Paul Devereux"'s little receipe to lucid dreams nothing less than propaganda. I mean, where's the credibility, the reference, the facts? Who is this guy? I mean, I'm sure I could write a paragraph too about a "Mr Zouinzouinpoukpouk who said that using 0.25mg of nutmeg each half an hour, every other day, except during lunar eclipse, can make your brain grow bigger." Hello !!?? And by the way, what in hell name is an ecopsychologist?!

Risks and toxicity

This section of the article clearly states that nutmeg contains no MAO inhibitors. I am concerned about the accuracy of this statement becuase other parts of this article state that myristicin is a compound found in nutmeg and the wikipedia article on myristicin states that the compound is a weak MAO inhibitor. Can someone please check other sources and try to resolve this issue. Thank you very much. Sequoyah 20:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

For those who say that if nutmeg could be dangerous it would not be sold in supermarkets, just think in coffe. It is not dangerous in small amounts, but it sure is in larger doses.

This part of the article is very subjective and unsupported. There is a direct refutation of the toxicity of nutmeg to humans. This linkhas another study document refuting the toxicity of Nutmeg to humans, and also addressing the increased risk of toxicity of nutmeg to other animals, including household pets. At best, the information the author refers to to support his/her assertion that nutmeg is poisonous to children is anecdotal and unsupported. At worst, it is a scare tactic and has no place in wikipedia. Other than the health benefits mentioned in the article, nutmeg is quite possibly an aphrodisiac and can possibly increase libido in humans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peelinglayers (talk • contribs) 14:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

30g = 6.322tsp

I changed the teaspoon measurements in the risks and toxicity section in two ways.

Firstly, since the measurements in grams were all rounded to the nearest 5g and given to a single significant figure, it is farcical to give four significant figures for the converted amount. Not just because it's claiming accuracy that just isn't there, but our metabolisms are not all the same to within four significant figures, and I challenge anyone to measure 6.322 teaspoons with normal kitchen equipment.

Secondly, the abbreviation "tsp" is subject to a variety of interpretations, including sources which use "teasp" and "tsp" for teaspoon and tablespoon respectively. Since this is kind of important (we're talking about toxicity here!) I replaced it with the full word. Though, since the teaspoon is not a global measure (US and EU teaspoons are different), I am unsure that teaspoons should even be mentioned here.

I am really unsure whether the weight should be specified in grams for a liquid anyway - should probably be ml instead of g though since it's not water, there won't be a 1:1 relationship.

Parts changed: 6.322 tsp 1.054-4.215 tsp 5.269 tsp

In all cases the amounts were rounded down, which, when speaking of toxicity, is probably a good thing and will help compensate for the fact that EU teaspoons are slightly bigger (5ml instead of 4.93ml)

[Edit - forgot to sign]DewiMorgan 17:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Just reverted a rather dangerous edit by 12.108.96.165, who changed "6 teaspoons" to "4 tablespoons". There are three measurements for tablespoons, the UK (14.2ml), US (14.7ml) and metric (15ml). Basically, 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons. The edit doubled the apparent "dangerous" amount from 30ml to 60ml.

There could be a reasonable argument for it being changed to "2 tablespoons", since I suspect that would be more accurate to measure with than scooping out six tablespoons. But then, why would anyone want to measure a potentially dangerous dose anyway? And I suspect it's best to use the same units throughout, for easy comparison. The change I reverted shows clearly that not everyone is au fait with teaspoon<>tablespoon conversion.--DewiMorgan 03:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Just popped back to make sure the numbers still added up. They didn't, looks like it's beein saying "10-40g (~4-8 teaspoons)" for a long time now (at least the entire last page's worth of edits). C'mon people, we're talking toxicity here! I don't know which of the two is correct, so changed to "~2-8 teaspoons" to be on the safe side. DewiMorgan (talk) 23:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

book about nutmeg

The correct title of the book in the references should be: Nathaniel's Nutmeg: Or the True and Incredible Adventures of the Spice Trader who Changed the Course of History by Giles Milton. Fischergb 03:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

psychoactive properties

GOT IT!!! Nutmeg contains 2 psychoactive chemicals "Nutmeg and mace contain two halluncinogenic substances: Myristicin and Elemicin" according to this site (http://www.umsl.edu/~keelr/180/hallucin.html) and when you do a quick google of it there is a wikipage about those substances being in Nutmeg and that they do in fact have psychoactive properties. So we should have a psychoactive section in this article about Nutmeg containing psychoactive chemicals.RYNORT 17:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Do not post recipes for folk remedies

I just removed some precise instructions for using nutmeg essential oil to treat toothaches, bad breath, muscle aches and childbirth pains. Wikipedia is not a cookbook nor a medical advice site. While people may in fact use Nutmeg essential oil medicinally, it is best to simply refer to the practice and not get so specific. Nutmeg poisoning is a real possible outcome of posting such instructions. In fact, Nutmeg is a known abortificant. I'm sure no wikipedian would want to be responbsible for a lost pregnancy simply because they chose to post some "helpful" instructions on how to help a mother relax before her impending deilvery. So let's be more careful, OK? I'll be trying to beef up some of the references in this article in the next few weeks. Please help me if you can.04:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

98.20.119.233 (talk) 13:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC) I ditto on the not posting that it can be used as legal halucinogenic, because I tried it and made me totality sick, I am totaly against the knowledge of this article, save some lives and remove it. Thank-you.

Someone who lived from it:)

I just removed a few more sentences that give directions on how to use Nutmeg oil medicinally. Please folks, if you want to mention that it is used for certain ailments, be general in your description without providing exact instructions. You may have used the spice or it's related products safely and think you are qualified to post instructions but that is considered original research which isn't allowed. If you want that info included, simply provide a brief description of the historical usage and a citation from the book or article where you found that info. That way the info is referenced and put into perspective. The reader can judge how reliable the info is based on the source. Most of the folk remedy and essential oil usage instructions seem to come from unreliable sources such as messageboards.LiPollis (talk) 16:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Nutmeg is banned in Saudi Arabia because of its potential for intoxication. Pvere (talk) 16:22, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree with you guys about over-enthusiastic advice. I have just had to remove similar advice from the page about nutmeg oil. I am writing by own profiles about essential oils for my own website project, working through from A to Z, and as I come across such suggestions I am editing them out. There's an awful lot though... Contributors don't seem to realise the difference between useful background and the witchdoctory that abounds in aromatherapy 'novels'. Cjsunbird (talk) 11:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Mace

I'd really like to see more information on mace here. Does anyone know anything more about it? The Jade Knight (talk) 01:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

This article never says what mace is, but there is a redirect here. --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Sleeping effects

Why isn't the article mentioning the very obvious effect of causing long periods of sleep? (when used in higher dosage) Joe0009 (talk) 23:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Toxicity

I just reverted some well-intended but unsourced edits that could have resulted in harm to readers who followed the editors advice or dosing instructions. Wikipedia does not give medical advice under any circumstances and we, as editors, should be mindful that readers of articles we edit tend to assume that whatever appears in a wiki article is a proven fact when that is often not the case. Therefore, we should avoid giving general advice or dosing information such as how many grams of a substance somebody can ingest to trip and hopefully not die. The material I removed gave instructions for how to possibly avoid toxicity while using nutmeg to trip. The method suggested was not sourced and seemed more like the anecdotal BS you see on Alt.Drugs.Hard.

Let me be clear - Nutmeg can be toxic in the doses often quoted on drug-related messageboards. We have included cited material such as it exists in medical literature but there's not an awful lot of quality information available on deliberate ingestion of nutmeg. That doesn't mean we should fill in the gap with anecdotes or personal experience. Wikipedia is not the place to give advice to people about how to get high. This is an article about a spice and it's about a spice with a well-documented history of toxicity. Be mindful of that when you consider posting recipes or instructions - neither of those belong in the article and posting them could harm a gullible reader.LiPollis (talk) 09:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to say I heartily agree with the deletions you have made in the last few months to this part of the article. Before you came along, I'd noticed in passing that the dosages were just dangerously, scarily bonkers and had cleaned them up to be safer, and I've been checking in on this article periodically to make sure the dosages hadn't changed dangerously and made at least some sense. Sometimes, I found they had been edited to be scarily high. Part of me feels sad, as I put a fair bit of work into it, hunting for references, researching whether a "teaspoon" really means the same thing internationally, and so on, to be sure the conversions made sense... but you are entirely right: dosage is medical stuff and has absolutely no place on Wikipedia. I shoulda just deleted, as you did, rather than tidying and factchecking. Thank you for being bold, and I'll try to show the same common sense in future! DewiMorgan (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Chemicals in nutmeg?

Since nutmeg has been documented as a deliriant in high doses, is there any available literature or research which documents any chemicals in it which are the possible catalysts of these effects? If there is, it is something to work into the article.--Metalhead94 (talk) 00:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

So I guess there isn't much available literature on the subject.--Metalhead94 (talk) 01:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Toxicity revisited

Toxicity section seems problematic and prone to dangerous edits: I just reverted a change which claimed it's take 20 years to have any negative effect on you! Ideas on making it a little safer would be good. I'm strongly inclined to separate off "use as a recreational narcotic" from "toxicity": at least maybe then the "nutmeg is deadly and can kill you very fast in relatively small doses" message will not be so prone to being erased by the agendas of the stoner crowd. - DewiMorgan (talk) 22:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)