Talk:Homophobia in ethnic minority communities

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Spikehawkin.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): T.scott0513. Peer reviewers: McCrowBar, Gvacaliuc.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wuchrist. Peer reviewers: HappyGourd, Ennis Architect.

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The article's scope[edit]

Hi,

I noticed this article on the Good Article nominations page, and while I don't feel qualified to formally review it, I'd still like to put in my two cents. I feel like the scope of the article's title is HUGE. As it is, the article only covers ethnic minority communities in two countries. So I think the title needs to be changed. Actually, I think the article could be split into two articles, with the possibility of individual articles about homophobia in ethnic communities in every major country/region. Honestly, the subject feels vast to me. Trying to capture an entire community's view on a subject is difficult and requires a lot of words and a lot of research. But you knew that already. What do you think? I don't know a ton about this subject, so I may be totally off base. Bobnorwal (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree – the primary reason as to why I started this article is because there were a few stub articles floating around the Wikiverse, and I felt that it would be best to collect all the information in this article for the time being. I personally would choose to add a lot more to this article (with regards to different countries, as you mentioned, and also a larger variety of ethnic groups), and then split, move etc. if sections are becoming too big to manage, hence why I chose a purposely all-encompassing title.
Although the scope is vast (as you say), I feel that splitting off articles will fuel more controversy, as attempts were made at creating articles on homophobia in different ethnic groups before I merged them into this article, but many of them were stubs and various incidents of edit warring kept taking place. – Zumoarirodoka (talk) 12:51, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bobnorwal, I was waiting to see what Zumoarirodoka would state about your suggestions. There is certainly no need to split this article into WP:Stubs or otherwise smaller articles; see WP:Spinout and WP:No split. Either a rename of the article or expanding the article will suffice. Flyer22 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Splitting this article into two wouldn't create two stubs — they'd be bigger than stubs — but I'll relent. I like your idea, Zumoarirodoka, of keeping the all-encompassing title, which leaves room for future expansion and (possibly) future splits. But that probably means that the article isn't ready to be a GA. As it is, it doesn't pass 3a of WP:GACR. Bobnorwal (talk) 14:02, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bobnorwal, well, I did state "or otherwise smaller articles." With the content currently in the article, the article is relatively small; I don't need to weigh it against WP:SIZE to see that. The split would create articles that are pretty close to being WP:Stubs. I don't like unnecessary article splits. And when I see articles that should be merged, I am likely to state that they should be merged. Anyway, I understand what you mean about the article needing expansion. But another thing to consider is the availability of sources. Flyer22 (talk) 14:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you! No need for a split at this point. Bobnorwal (talk) 17:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Homophobia in ethnic minority communities/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Delldot (talk · contribs) 01:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Starting this review, comments coming shortly! delldot ∇. 01:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the hard work that’s gone into this article. It’s a fascinating topic, and a good start at a treatment of it, but I’m afraid the treatment here is not enough to meet the comprehensiveness criterion for GA.

It might be best to split this article into two: Homophobia in ethnic minority communities in the United States and Homophobia in ethnic minority communities in the United Kingdom. Then this article could have a section to summarize each of those as well as sections for ethnic minorities in other countries. That way the need to globalize the article is dealt with.

I’m certainly not suggesting that anyone is intentionally biasing the article, but if you have a whole set of examples of homophobia in minority communities, it creates a picture of “minority communities are homophobic” which is a simplification that I think many would take issue with. It seems to create an unstated comparison with whites that is no doubt unintentional.

I like that the article does use some books and academic sources, because I think there needs to be a more in-depth look at the issue to support the idea that is repeatedly suggested here that minority communities in the US are more homophobic than white ones. I’m not convinced that what one ball player writes on his eyepatch is good enough evidence to suggest that the Latino community at large is homophobic. So I worry that an over-reliance on news media, which focuses on one-off events like this, might give a more superficial treatment of the topic, might bias the article in using examples like this to form an oversimplified picture, without using counterexamples from white communities (e.g. have any white ball players made homophobic comments?).

IIRC in academic literature there’s the perspective from members of African American communities to the effect of, Black communities don’t always reject and eject gay members, they’re still one of us, while in some white communities, complete ostracism is the norm. I wonder if the absence of perspectives counter to the narrative that minority communities are especially homophobic indicates a lack of comprehensiveness in the article.

Similarly I think the (uncited) portrayal of homophobia among Asian Americans as the “result of a counterattack to the perceived feminization of Asian men in mainstream culture” needs more than one sentence treatment. There’s a lot of nuance there.

There’s also no mention in the US section of any of the communities of LGBTQ people of color that exist. I think leaving out those voices is a mistake.

Anyway, I have more thoughts if you’re interested and I’m happy to help however I can as we continue improving the article(s). Sorry to be abrupt like this and fail it outright but I think the changes needed are large enough not to fit well in a GA review. Let me know if I can be of any help. delldot ∇. 01:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I've just noticed the consensus not to split on the talk page--no problem, just need to add info from other places to globalize the coverage. delldot ∇. 01:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Homophobia in the Jewish and Arab communites (and other Middle Eastern peoples)[edit]

As a Mizrahi Jew I really think it is important that we add some discussion about Homophobia in the Jewish and Arab communities. I can come up with a draft but I really don't want to be the only one contributing it.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rainbowofpeace: I would really appreciate if you could write something on that, since we really need to globalise the coverage here. I'm willing to help as much as I can with your draft/edits, but I probably won't be much use. Have you brought this up at WP:LGBT, WP:JUDAISM or similar Wikiproject? I really hope that you can find some help with your article there.
The article on Pinkwashing (LGBT) might be somewhat useful with regards to Israel/Palestine, although there are serious WP:NPOV issues to be considered. – Zumoarirodoka(talk)(email) 14:26, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just posting some sources that I and other editors can use to add a section on Arab and Middle Eastern homophobia

1. Arab & Arab American Feminisms: Gender, Violence, & Belonging edited by Rabab Abdulhadi, Evelyn Alsultany, Nadine Christine Naber 2. Arab Americans and HIV prevention http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=pr-rr-11 3. A Qualitative Study of Middle Eastern/Arab American Sexual Identity Development (University of Tennessee https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=2717&context=utk_gradthes

I will search for Arab and Middle Eastern European sources as well as sources about Jewish homophobia in the diasporic community soon. -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 09:34, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

African-American culture and sexual orientation[edit]

This used to be a separate article, but it was redirected into Homophobia in ethnic minority communities by User:Zumoarirodoka. African-American culture isn't exclusively homophobic, so it might be inaccurate to redirect this page here. Jarble (talk) 18:59, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jarble: I agree completely; the only reason that article was redirected here was that all the content which was on that article is included on this page. As I've said before (but seemingly not on this talk page), if other users could find a more apt redirect or create a more detailed wider article it'd be greatly appreciated. Thank you. – Zumoarirodoka(talk)(email) 19:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

African culture and sexual orientation[edit]

Africa itself should also be included for better or for worse. At least an economic counter argument could be pointed out. Johnhgagon (talk) 11:23, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

South American culture and sexual orientation[edit]

South America seems to have it better despite being also equatorial. Is there a poverty-hot zone, aggression factor? Johnhgagon (talk) 11:23, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Needs cleanup (September 2018)[edit]

Is it fair to say that the article reads a bit like a term paper? I just did some article cleanup, but it fried my brain when I was only halfway done. Whole paragraphs are worthy of deletion, in my opinion, but that's worth discussing first. As I said in my revision: This article is a bit difficult to parse from an encyclopedic perspective. Too much empty quantifying ("many XYZs feel..."), adverbs ("often" — I cleaned these), in-text overreliance on queer theorists, run-on sentences, roads to nowhere, and weasel words. It's all a bit messy. I'm going to slap a cleanup template on top. Antinate (talk) 02:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

New Article[edit]

Hello! I am working on creating a new article for Homophobia toward Ethnic Minorities in the United States. To accomplish this, I will use some of the information that exists on the parent article, Homophobia in ethnic minority communities, and add more detail to all of the sections that focus on the United States. I will also create a section for Native-Americans and detail their experiences of homophobia within the US. T.scott0513 (talk) 07:53, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@T.scott0513: Can you elaborate? It looks like the article Homophobia in ethnic minority communities already exists, and has for some time. At 36,000 bytes, this is nowhere near the threshold for a size split. If you create Homophobia in ethnic minority communities in the United States (currently a redirect) and move half the content of the existing article to the new one, that would reduce the size of the existing one even more. I don't see a justification for this. If you would like to continue on that path, I'd like to hear your rationale for it.
Can you simply work on expanding the United States section of the existing article, adding your section for Native-Americans there? Also, another way to expand the current article, is to include other regions. You could start, for example, by adding Canada, which has a lot of ethnic minority communities among its First Nations population. Mathglot (talk) 11:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
His articles says "towards" so maybe they mean the subject of enthic minorities being the victims of homophobia from the majority (possibly due to different cultural ideas about sexuality)? As opposed to this article which covers homophobia within ethnic groups.★Trekker (talk) 17:16, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@★Treker: Yes, I also noticed that. But that would yield two articles on very similar topics, which likely would end up being merged at some later date. Anyway, I don't want to mind read their intent so would prefer to hear from them directly. Mathglot (talk) 19:52, 26 September 2018 (UTC) Repinging ★Trekker, as the last one red-linked. Mathglot (talk) 19:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC) Annnnnnnnd, once more: reping @*Treker:... Mathglot (talk) 20:23, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that there is no need for two articles on the topic at this point in time. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:08, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would agruge that they are different topics, but similar ones. I think two articles could exist on the subject if both were good and well defined.★Trekker (talk) 21:17, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The point is whether a split is needed. WP:Spinout, WP:Split, WP:No split and WP:No page are guides on matters such as these. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:54, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Paging T.scott0513. Can you kindly respond to the questions in the post above? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 06:57, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone, thank you for your feedback! I'm sorry for the late response. I am no longer planning on creating a separate article for homophobia in ethnic minority groups in the United States. Instead I will just expand the sections for the United States on the existing article.T.scott0513 (talk) 18:51, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unbalanced article?[edit]

Besides the problem of focusing on the US and UK which has already been pointed out, there are several problems of bias in this article.

First, there is no article on "homophobia in white communities". If this article must exist, so must an article on homophobia in white communities, at the very least.

Second, this article is lumping together all ethnic minority communities as if they are all the same. Imagine if there were an article on "homophobia in non-African communities". This would clearly be biased as it would assume the default race is African. This real article is biased as it stereotypes all ethnic minority communities as if they have all the same qualities and traits.

Third, this article inherently seems to assume there is some special type of homophobia within ethnic minority communities. If there is, it ought to be dealt with separately for each race. Else this article is clearly racist, as it assumes increased homophobia among ethnic minorities.

In solution to all of these, I propose there ought to be one article concerning homophobia in communities of each race (homophobia in black communities, homophobia in white communities, homophobia in Latino communities...) This would solve the first problem; the second problem of assuming a default race; the third problem of implying homophobia in ethnic communities; and even the problem of nationality, as there would be space to talk about each race as a whole, since the term "minority" is here implying a race of color within a majority-white country. Wiki user wiki (talk) 00:55, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't forget to sign your comments! I agree with the idea that it is problematic to assume a default race or ethnic community. However, to avoid the article being biased toward a particular country or region, it is also important to recognize that diversity and ethnic groups vary in different parts of the world; the terms Latina, black, white are not the relevant groups in many other regions. DStrassmann (talk) 19:13, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wiki user, are you insane, do you propose we have an article about racism in the heterosexual community as well? Secondly, there is a thing on wikipedia that is required and significantly more important that neutrality and a world wide-view and that is the rule of reliable sources. If you want to make an article about white homophobia you will face two challenges. First off, very few instances of homophobia are unique to the White community secondly the sources would need to explicitly mention it as a white form of homophobia. The fact that you didn't attack the Racism in the LGBT community in a similar fashion clearly shows that you might be the one with the bias. Homophobia in the white community (at least in communities where white people are a majority and hold white privilege) is called homophobia. Racism in the Heterosexual community is called racism. The point of this article along with Racism in the LGBT community is to address inter-minority discrimination which I think is unique.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 19:31, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Take a chill pill, and review WP:CIV. How ideas are categorized is worthy of civil debate, with reference to published discussions. DStrassmann (talk)
I second DStrassmann's reco that these issues are worth raising and should be discussed as dispassionately and objectively as possible. That said, I also think Rainbowofpeace's comment is accurate that "Homophobia in the white community (at least in communities where white people are a majority...is called homophobia". That is, perhaps, because we are communicating in English Wikipedia, whose "default" is Western culture, in which the majority of people are white. "Minority communities" within that context is a meaningful, plural term that can be narrowed in focus by stipulating which sub-culture is being discussed with respect to any alleged manifestations of racism. I would expect that an article about "minorities" would address the views/behavior of the "majority" to the extent the latter is the environment in which lgbt/minority interactions transpire. For example, in the "racism = prejudice + power" theory to which some subscribe, the attitudes of minorities toward lgbt people is likely to be more restricted in impact than when practiced by members of the dominant ethnicity. Others wold argue the contrary, that intra-group discrimination has greater impact. All of that is fair game for the article, so long as it is balanced. FactStraight (talk) 00:33, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
First, the statistics at https://qz.com/1021265/the-americans-who-sympathize-most-with-the-lgbt-community-arent-white/ show that although blacks are more likely to oppose same-sex marriage legalization, they are more sympathetic with the LGBT community and when asked if they believe queer people face discrimination, they are more likely to say yes. The most likely to say yes are blacks, followed by Latinos, then Mixed Race people, then whites, finally Asians or Pacific Islanders (which is approximately the same order of likelihood to vote Democratic, which makes sense as Democrats are more likely to support gay marriage legalization and other pro-LGBT policies). So although marriage equality under law is a separate issue, people of color sympathize the most with LGBTs, perhaps because they understand them but believe in heternormativity. In my opinion, it seems much of the Western media's covering homophobic anti-marriage equality statistics in Western minorities but not pro-queer acceptance statistics shows a racist bias, the same kind that portrays people of color (especially men) as uncivilized homophobic misogynists.
As for the racism in heterosexual community counterargument. I understand what you are saying, but ethnic minorities differ considerably from LGBT minorities. Part of it is my opinion that I believe in what is called heteronormativity but not in any white normativity, for one reason because whites are no more numerous than about any other race. And if you are saying whites are more numerous in the West and therefore defending white normativity, this is first biased for the West, and second within certain communities, such as inner cities, a person may be more likely to see a black person than a white person, so instead of pointing out a national majority, we could point out state majorities for the US, district majorities, city majorities. Keep in mind, many white and black people in the US are biased to think there are more of their own race in the US than there actually are, because of segregation, and you may be subject to this effect, causing a bias. I think what DStrassman is saying though is reasonable, so the main point is to expand it to not be focused only on the West. This still could be argued to have a bias because it assumes that minorities in any place have homophobia of a different or special type than the majority, but this is not a racist bias, merely a "majority" bias which, unless used to justify white supremacy in some way, would not be very important because there are no pro-majority bias movements or unconscious pro-majority bias. Wiki user wiki (talk) 15:26, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review[edit]

Thea, you made some really great edits to this article! I am honestly surprised this vital information wasn’t already included in it. I really appreciated the theoretical framework you provided towards the beginning. I also think you didn’t come off as biased and you were able to capture the nuanced aspects of this topic. I would consider adding images and maybe rearranging the beginning sections so that the prevalence section comes before the Black church section. Again, great job! Aminawilliams (talk) 15:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review Comments[edit]

Thank you for your contribution and working on such a vital topic. I think your additions added a lot of quality information on this topic, and I especially was interested in how religion is often an important part of Black communities and yet is a major contributor to homophobia. I have a few areas in which I can see you improving this article in terms of referencing, content, and images. For referencing, please try and provide more links to other articles, cite the claims you pull from your sources, and look for more recent sources. For content, I'd love to see more information in the section on Homophobia in Latino communities and some more statistics on impacts. Potentially also discuss more impacts than just HIV/AIDS. I also agree with Amina on moving up prevalence. Finally, some images, even just statistics, would be great! Great job Wickersong (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank You T.Scott0513![edit]

Thank you for your contribution to this important topic that is rarely addressed. I am sure it will be very informative for the readers. I am really impressed by the fact that you were able to find so much information such a specific topic. I am sure there will be more attention and research done on the topic in the near future. I would recommend that you add links on this article to other articles, and on other articles to this article to increase clarity and traffic to this page, respectively. Some images would also help make the article look more appealing. But those are just nuisances. The more important thing I would like to address is that there are certain parts which came off a bit strong and biased. If it was a widely accepted opinion, belongs to someone, or supported by statistics, make references to those so we don’t think it is your opinion. Overall, I am really glad you contributed to such an important topic and would like to that you on behalf of the Wikipedia community. McCrowBar (talk) 19:19, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per recent edits from T.Scott0513[edit]

Thanks for making considerable contributions to this article; they're vastly appreciated by the Wiki community. Overall I think the contributions cover a portion of this topic that wasn't previously reflected in the article, which is great! I agree with some of the other wikipedians in that you might want to reorder some of the sections you added, possibly restructuring the sections under "Homophobia in the Black Community" to flow like: "Prevalence", "In the Black Church", "Relationship with AIDS". Also, there's an existing issue that portions of the article read like a term paper. I think that you might be able to restructure some of the existing / added content in the lead section to address this and make the page read a bit more like an encyclopedia. Overall some great contributions, I just think you should make sure to step back and view the page at a high-level and make sure structure / language is appropriate in your future edits. Thanks again! Gvacaliuc (talk) 00:33, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

AAPI Section Edits[edit]

While I recognize that this topic is sensitive on "white vs non-white" homophobia as well as the overabundance of US and UK differences, I still believe that there could be edits made to the AAPI section to include a little bit more information that might be relevant to the topic. The section could definitely include more nuance in how cultural attitudes are sometimes less accepting in some AAPI communities. Wuchrist (talk) 03:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal for edits[edit]

Hi, Wuchrist here. Please check out my sandbox here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wuchrist/sandbox to look at some of the references and proposal ideas I have for this article! I look forward to your feedback. I am planning mostly on adding to the AAPI section of the article in how different representations of homosexuality and queerness can come from the diaspora and translate into US culture, as well as how Asian Americans manage queer/LGBT identity differently due to intersectional identities within the US. I will also add some important caveats and theory discussion to the header of this page, and possibly add to the Black community section. Wuchrist (talk) 04:42, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Term paper" tag[edit]

Since User:Antinate added the "term paper" tag in September 2018, and based on this note left on my talk page by User:Wuchrist, I wonder if we can have a discussion about how this article can be improved so hopefully the tag can be removed. To start, I'm curious if Antinate can identify any specifically problematic text. Also, I am going to request a copy edit from the Guild of Copy Editors. This is unlikely to result in tag removal or work specifically addressing the tag, but may help with general cleanup a bit. I invite Wuchrist to keep an eye on progress and reach out to relevant WikiProject (Discrimination, LGBT studies, etc) for additional assistance. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:13, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Update: The 'term paper'tag has been removed, thanks to User:Baffle gab1978! ---Another Believer (Talk) 05:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review for Wuchrist[edit]

Hi Wuchrist! You’re doing an amazing job adding to some of the more underdeveloped section of this article, particularly the one about Asian Americans. I am impressed by the amount of nuance you are bringing to this article. I suggest being more careful about making generalizations in your writing. For example, you mention how in Hispanic cultures, women are supposed to be submissive to men, but you should add some sort of disclaimer or clarification so that readers won’t conclude that these cultural norms are something inherent to Hispanic people. I also think there is a good opportunity in this article to talk about the expectation for black men to be hypermasculine, and how that adds to the stigma around black gay men. Lastly, be sure to look for places where you used the word “broader” and revise those to be more specific. Good luck with your future work! I enjoyed learning from you a lot, and I’m excited for more readers to learn from your contributions as well. HappyGourd (talk) 01:58, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Minority homophobia in relation to dominant society[edit]

I recently removed a paragraph from the lead about the relationship between minority homophobia and dominant culture. There are two major issues with this paragraph:

  • It doesn't have any concise support from the main body, but would appear to be original research based on observations made over primary sources
  • It is a vague overgeneralization that cannot possibly apply to the West in general, and is probably a matter of contention that is commonly rejected in secondary sources

For example, while minorities might be uniquely homophobic in relation to the dominant culture of the societies in which they live, such as in Sweden or France, that's definitely not the case in the United States, Ireland, Spain, or Austria.

Just to give an example, several authors have spoken about the stereotype of black homophobia in the USA. They regard black homophobia as an extension of the dominant American culture, and a consequence of Black assimilation to hardline Christianity in the South. They also insist that blacks are not markedly more homophobic than whites.

Alton Hornsby writes,

"however, to simply claim that Blacks are "more" homophobic than Whites or any other racial-ethnic group entirely misses the point, and produces a skewed analysis, which further demonized Blacks as having the "wrong" values or failing to keep pace in a rapidly changing society. Given the institutional barriers that have been developed and maintained in the USA to marginalize same-sex sexuality, and to limit the full participation and rights of LGBT persons, it becomes evident that homophobia is embedded in the national culture, rather than originating from a specific racial-ethnic group...[1]

Roger Sneed writes,

The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life conducted a study concerning American attitudes toward homosexuality that seems to contradict an assumption of black hyperhomophobia. Among the whites surveyed, 50 percent held unfavorable views of gays and lesbians. Among the blacks surveyed, 60 percent held unfavorable views of gays and lesbians. This does not indicate a marked difference between whites and blacks concerning negative views toward gays. Rather, this statistic, derived from from black respondents who claimed a Christian religious orientation, shows that black people interpret the bible as proscribing homosexual sexual behavior. [2]

So I am leaning towards removal of this overgeneralization from the lead, which could be misinterpreted in all kinds of ways, and that would make for a dis-service to Wikipedia's readers. It would be better to develop content about the discourse surrounding minority homophobia in relation to the dominant culture, preferably using secondary source materials. 2603:8080:2C00:1E00:891:D96:5E15:4083 (talk) 10:21, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Adakiko:
I would really appreciate a response regarding your recent revert of my deletion of this paragraph.
You wrote in your edit summary that it is cited in the main body, but you didn't specify where, and much of this article is characterized by WP:CITEOVERKILL with most book citations lacking page numbers. See, for example, the Black community section where virtually no book citation has a page number.
For citations that do not require page numbers, such as editorial columns, there is support for the idea that African Americans are uniquely homophobic. For example, from Bill Maxwell's op-ed in the Tampa Bay Times:
Several studies and polls show that homophobia is a major part of African-American culture, enabled by religious and political nonsense and emotional and intellectual immaturity. Based on everything I have read, we are, in fact, the nation's most homophobic population. One striking example of our contempt for gay people came in 2008, when California passed Proposition 8, which constitutionally outlawed same-sex marriage in that state. A whopping 70 percent of blacks voted for the measure, compared to 53 percent of Hispanic voters, 49 percent of white voters and 49 percent of Asian voters. In other states where gay rights issues are put to the vote, a majority of blacks consistently oppose such rights.[3]
... but yet again, there are secondary sources criticizing this view. For example, Lauren Keller writes that the same stats quoted by Bill Maxwell were inaccurate, and that Blacks are not uniquely homophobic within the context of American culture.
Lauren Kehrer wrote:
Early exit polls, later proven inaccurate, estimated that 70 percent of Black voters, most of who voted for President Barack Obama, also voted in favor of Prop 8, and several of the biggest media outlets in turn cited this statistic as fact. This prompted many white marriage-equality supporters, such as gay writers Dan Savage and Andrew Sullivan, to decry "Black homophobia" as the root cause of the setback to marriage equality. As Slate contributor Jamelle Bouie of points out, this scapegoating of Black voters, like Macklemore's Scapegoating of hip-hop, is part of a larger phenomenon of "invented black pathology," in which "behaviors present among other groups of Americans become pathologies when they're exhibited by blacks. Citing the report released by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force in January 2009 that found that only 58% of African American voters supported Prop 8, Bouie noted "Prop 8 didn't win because of blacks or Latinos, it won because millions of Californians -- white as much as black or or brown -- opposed same-sex marriage"
By painting homophobia as a uniquely Black problem, rather than an American problem that cuts across all ethnic and racial communities, white LGBTQ leaders position themselves as wiser, more progressive, and thus better situated as leaders of a mainstream movement that can "fix" the problems within communities of color. It also further marginalizes queer people of color who are left primarily outside of this discussion unless they are invoked as infantile subjects in need of saving from their own communities. Macklemore's assertion in "Same Love" that "If I were gay I would think hip hop hates me" functions in much the same way as the backlash against Black voters following the passing of Prop 9 in that it also relies on the exaggerated concept of Black homophobia as a threat to LGBTQ people.[4]
Although I am just using one specific example from the Black community section, my point here is that this is a very contentious idea.
Yet, I am not seeing anywhere in the article where a citation explicitly says that minorities in general may be uniquely homophobic in relation to the dominant society in which they live. It would appear to be original research based on a synthesis of a lot of citations that are lacking page numbers. I have a hard time believing that there is a source out there saying that People of Color in general may be more homophobic, because that's a huge overgeneralization every bit as much as the idea that white cultures in general are not homophobic. Your response would be much appreciated. - 2603:8080:2C00:1E00:891:D96:5E15:4083 (talk) 11:21, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Hornsby, Alton (15 April 2008). A Companion to African American History. John Wiley & Sons. p. 430. ISBN 978-1-4051-3735-5.
  2. ^ Sneed, R. (29 March 2010). Representations of Homosexuality: Black Liberation Theology and Cultural Criticism. Springer. p. 56. ISBN 978-0-230-10656-7.
  3. ^ Maxwell, Bill (8 October 2012). "Homophobia: It's a black thing - Tampa Bay Times". web.archive.org.
  4. ^ Kehrer, Lauron J. (2 November 2022). Queer Voices in Hip Hop: Cultures, Communities, and Contemporary Performance. University of Michigan Press. p. 12-13. ISBN 978-0-472-90301-6.

Buttaro & Battle 2012[edit]

African Americans disagree with LGBT civil liberties more than their white counterparts; some theorize this is because of conservative churches' role in advocating for African American civil liberties and that this advocacy has expanded into the LGBT population.

A citation is provided for this (Buttaro & Battle 2012) but unfortunately it doesn't give a specific page number (1-22 is the length of the entire work including reference pages).

Actually, there is nothing in this study that says African Americans disagree with LGBT civil liberties than their white counterparts. It also says nothing about the role of the church. Sadly the links in the citation don't work, or don't provide working full-text documents, but I was able to find an archived version here.

Here's what the study actually said about black people's views on LGBT civil liberties in the USA. From pages 16-17:

According to the “Survey of Chicago African-Americans” (1997), 66.2 percent of respondents favored nondiscrimination in the workplace supporting “gay job discrimination laws,” yet 66.5 percent opposed “homosexuals and lesbians being allowed to adopt children.” Equally complexing, 52.8 percent of people disagreed in varying degrees to the statement “homosexuality is disgusting.”12 The General Social Survey (2002), a national dataset, found that 82.1 percent of blacks considered, to varying degrees, that “homosexual sex relations” were wrong.13 Taking into consideration the methodological differences of those surveys and our research (for example, indicators used, the way concepts were operationalized, methodologies employed, etc.), we conclude that, in some geographic areas, although the environment continues to be a source of pressure and stress, there is a higher acceptance of different sexual identities than the average U.S. area. Since LGBT identity coexists with many other kinds of identity, it becomes important to substantiate these preliminary outcomes.

In other words, black people's view of LGBT civil liberties is nuanced. In some ways they are more accepting than the U.S. general population.

The word "church" is found once in the body of this document. It is in this paragraph:

However, alongside this critique of homophobia within the black community, we also acknowledge the role of external force in inciting homophobia. More specifically, by holding homosexuality as a (biblical) sin, black churches fostered a symbolic assault on LGBTs as theological practice enhancing de facto masculinist attitudes in the community (Boykin 2005; Ward 2005). From a different position, some authors have argued the incompatibility between homosexuality and Afrocentricity: “Homosexuality and lesbianism are deviation from Afrocentric thought because they often make the person evaluate his or her own physical need above the teachings of national consciousness” (Asante 2003, 72).7 We believe that, by implication, this also supports what others have discussed about how the political right stirs homophobia in the black community for political gain (Chideya 1993).

The wiki seems to take a very selective interpretation of what this document says. Rather than highlighting the conflicting nature of black views on LGBT civil liberties, it only acknowledges where blacks opposed certain liberties. It ignores that they were more likely to support certain liberties.

The contradictory nature of black people's LGBT civil rights views is noted in secondary sources.

Willoughby-Herard, pages 7-8:

Yet, African-American attitudes on LGBT rights are not so simple. As Sherkat et al. have noted, while African-Americans oppose same-sex marriage rights at a higher level, they also are more supportive of certain civil rights for LGBT people than whites (Sherkat et al. 2010, Lewis 2003). While Blacks are more likely to condemn LGBT people, they are "more likely to support laws prohibiting antigay discrimination" (Lewis 2003, 76). When controlling for education and religion, blacks are also more likely to favor gay civil liberties and support gay employment rights (Lewis 2003). Explanations for the higher levels of Black opposition to same-sex marriage have focused on religion -- both religious affiliation and religiosity. Religion has been shown to be a key favor in influencing support for or opposition to same-sex marriage (Sherkat et al. 2010) In particular, affiliation with Catholicism and certain Protestant denominations are positively related to opposition to same-sex marriage. Sherkat et al. found that much of that Black-White difference in attitude is attributable to differences in religious affiliation -- specifically Blacks' rate of affiliation with Baptists and other Protestants, as well as the high levels of religious participation.[1]

Later on page 8:

This opposition, led largely by religious leaders, reflects the findings that attribute Black opposition in general to certain widespread religious beliefs. Yet, other Black leaders have also been out front in support of marriage rights. In particular, many high profile Black religious and civil rights leaders including Rev. Jesse Jackson, Rev. Al Shaprton, NAACP head, Rev. Ben Jealous, each took public stances in support of of same-sex marriage. Beyond the high profile national figures, as the debates unfolded in states around the country, often local ministers (particularly associated with the NAACP) came out in support of same-sex marriage rights. Thus we have a varied picture with a majority of the population opposed to expanding marriage rights and national elites and some local cities supporting such an expansion.

I believe Buttaro and Battle should be summarized to reflect the whole of their observations, and that more secondary sources should also have weight in the article. 2603:8080:2C00:1E00:3DE6:88E:D699:494C (talk) 20:41, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Willoughby-Herard, Tiffany (5 July 2017). Challenging the Legacies of Racial Resentment: Black Health Activism, Educational Justice, and Legislative Leadership. Routledge. p. 7-8. ISBN 978-1-351-52957-0.
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