Talk:Eli H. Janney

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Article needs more depth:[edit]

I am having trouble regarding the chronology:

Andrew Jackson Beard:
"His Jenney Coupler [or "Jenny"] joined two [cars together] simply by bumping them against ["eachother" or "each other"] and was patented in November 1897."
Eli Hamilton Janney:
"...in April 25, 1873, for an automatic ["carcoupler" or "car coupler"] which, closed automatically when [the cars] came together."

1873? 1897? If the one from '73 dominates now, then how could the one from '97 also dominate?

Andrew Jackson Beard: 1849-1921, seventy-two?
Eli Hamilton Janney: Nov. 12, 1831, - June 16, 1912, eighty, or eighty-one?

This does need much work.

Thank You. hopiakuta 14:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion[edit]

I've just moved this page [these pages]. If there are double-redirects, well, I did not see them.

Thank You. hopiakuta 15:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[5] hopiakuta 15:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Those aren't double redirects as they only go through one redirect to get to the article's new location. Since we're on the subject, I disagree with the move that you've made today. Looking at the list of links, it's clear that there are many more articles that refer to this Eli Janney than the new article's subject. If anything, I would think that the new article should be at Eli Janney (musician) and Eli Janney be made a disambig page with {{hndis}} on it. Slambo (Speak) 15:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do contend that it's more important to disambiguate the years, scribe a page f/ Andrew Jackson Beard, otherwise offer more depth. I do not have the data. Do you? hopiakuta 18:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If there would be "Eli Janney (musician)", then there should be "Eli Janney (engineer, confederate soldier)". Thank You. hopiakuta 18:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Robert Stevens for an example of the kind of disambiguation that is also appropriate here. For subjects where a middle initial is known, the initial is usually sufficient for disambiguation of the article title (i.e. Robert L. Stevens or Robert J. Stevens) and a paranthetical disambiguation phrase is used for those where a middle initial is not known or is not enough to distinguish two individuals (i.e. Robert Stevens (director) or Robert Stevens (photo editor)). For this subject, since the inventor's middle initial is known, his article should be at Eli H. Janney while the musician's article, since no middle initial is known, would be at Eli Janney (musician) and Eli Janney would be a disambiguation page pointing to both articles. For more examples of human name disambiguation pages, take a look at some of the pages that use the hndis template. Slambo (Speak) 19:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So are there any real objections to making the page moves as I described to bring these articles in line with existing human name disambiguation practices? Slambo (Speak) 19:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing no objections after four days, I'm going ahead with the moves as described above. Slambo (Speak) 15:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Slambo (Speak) 16:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

form versus function[edit]

I had come to this page hoping to learn about Mr. Beard, as he has no page here. So, therefore, historical content is more of the issue than format. I have learned much from this website, & that's excellent; however, form often destroys function.

If I want to learn more regarding Mr. Beard, & Mr. Janney, then others, likely, possibly, do as well. Learning about these two men could teach us about slavery & class, & transit issues, & even, about energy. The only wiki-places that I've located, thus far, w/ the phrase "form versus function" are: toy_dog (teacup_dog); talk:religion/Archive002 (religion); talk:religion/Archive001 (via google); talk:religion/_archive1. With the various scandals, I'd expected much more than that.

Please, biographical-content, historical-content. Please, where? If anyone knows where, then please do post it. If it violates either copyright, or whatever else, then I do hope that I could read it prior to being deleted. Their biographies were, likely, scribed a century ago, & are likely to be "public" anyhow.

I, largely, want to learn why the chronology seems to conflict, as I wrote above.

These men had done enough to earn many more pages, although they, likely, never had heard any word similar to "internet". For them, the phrase "movie theater" was new:

The first theater dedicated exclusively to showing motion pictures was Vitascope Hall, established on Canal Street, New Orleans, Louisiana in 1896. The first permanent structure designed for screening of movies was Tally's Electric Theater, completed in 1902 in Los Angeles, California. The 1913 opening of the Regent Theater in New York City signalled a new respectability for the medium, and the start of the two-decade heyday of American cinema design. Los Angeles promoter Sid Grauman began the trend of theatre-as-destination with his ornate "Million Dollar Theatre" (the first to signify its primary use for motion pictures with the "theatre" spelling), which opened on Broadway in downtown Los Angeles in 1918.

Louis_Aimée_Augustin_Le_Prince; Louis_Aimé_Augustin_Le_Prince.

Thank You. hopiakuta 15:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

free speech does not exist.[edit]

Making my messages more difficult to read is truly offensive; but, is something that is a major habit on this website. However, even more offensive is that we have no method to collect the much needed data to create worthy articles, in a large number of cases.


I do suspect that one possibility might be to find a way to convince librarians, & publishers, to actively participate, on a large scale.


Please do quit assuming how I want my messages to appear. I do scribe my messages according to what I find, what I perceive, increases readability.

Do not punish others for being unique, or you shall, eventually, find others treating you as irrelevant, as well. I have already described that I had come to this article of a sincere interest in the issue; it seems that you have ignored this, as well as the effort in collecting all of the data that I could. I have not altered your text, thus far.

If you want to do something credible, then assist w/ the research. Quit garbaging my messages. Now. I am holding-back several various adjectives.

You do seem to have neither form nor function. &, as for "assume good faith", why you do not?

hopiakuta 19:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought the whitespace edits made it easier to read. Slambo (Speak) 14:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

block quote | blockquote[edit]

Article needs more depth:[edit]

< http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbeard.htm >;

< http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bljannycoupler.htm >;

< http://inventors.about.com/od/blackinventors/ss/Beard_patents.htm >;

< http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Bn5FvwtPaZsJ:railroadforum.com/magazine/issue003/coupler.pdf+%22andrew+jackson+beard%22+%22%22+%22eli+hamilton%22+%22janney%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 >.

I am having trouble regarding the chronology:

Andrew Jackson Beard:

"His Jenney Coupler [or "Jenny"] joined two [cars together] simply by bumping them against ["eachother" or "each other"] and was patented in November 1897."

Eli Hamilton Janney:

"...in April 25, 1873, for an automatic ["carcoupler" or "car coupler"] which, closed automatically when [the cars] came together."

1873? 1897?

If the one from '73 dominates now, then how could the one from '97 also dominate?

Andrew Jackson Beard: 1849-1921, seventy-two?

Eli Hamilton Janney: Nov. 12, 1831, - June 16, 1912, eighty, or eighty-one?

This does need much work.

Thank You.

hopiakuta 14:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


I've just moved this page [these pages].

If there are double-redirects, well, I did not see them.

Thank You.

hopiakuta 15:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

< http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere/Eli_Hamilton_Janney&limit=500&from=0 >.

hopiakuta 15:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Those aren't double redirects as they only go through one redirect to get to the article's new location. Since we're on the subject, I disagree with the move that you've made today. Looking at the list of links, it's clear that there are many more articles that refer to this Eli Janney than the new article's subject. If anything, I would think that the new article should be at Eli Janney (musician) and Eli Janney be made a disambig page with {{hndis}} on it. Slambo (Speak) 15:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I do contend that it's more important to disambiguate the years, scribe a page f/ Andrew Jackson Beard, otherwise offer more depth.

I do not have the data. Do you?

hopiakuta 18:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


If there would be "Eli Janney (musician)", then there should be "Eli Janney (engineer, confederate soldier)".

Thank You.

hopiakuta 18:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

See Robert Stevens for an example of the kind of disambiguation that is also appropriate here. For subjects where a middle initial is known, the initial is usually sufficient for disambiguation of the article title (i.e. Robert L. Stevens or Robert J. Stevens) and a paranthetical disambiguation phrase is used for those where a middle initial is not known or is not enough to distinguish two individuals (i.e. Robert Stevens (director) or Robert Stevens (photo editor)). For this subject, since the inventor's middle initial is known, his article should be at Eli H. Janney while the musician's article, since no middle initial is known, would be at Eli Janney (musician) and Eli Janney would be a disambiguation page pointing to both articles. For more examples of human name disambiguation pages, take a look at some of the pages that use the hndis template. Slambo (Speak) 19:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

form versus function[edit]

I had come to this page hoping to learn about Mr. Beard, as he has no page here. So, therefore, historical content is more of the issue than format. I have learned much from this website, & that's excellent; however, form often destroys function.

If I want to learn more regarding Mr. Beard, & Mr. Janney, then others, likely, possibly, do as well. Learning about these two men could teach us about slavery & class, & transit issues, & even, about energy.

The only wiki-places that I've located, thus far, w/ the phrase "form versus function" are:

toy_dog [ teacup_dog ]; talk:religion/Archive002 [ religion ]; talk:religion/Archive001 [via google]; talk:religion/_archive1. With the various scandals, I'd expected much more than that.

Please, biographical-content, historical-content. Please, where? If anyone knows where, then please do post it. If it violates either copyright, or whatever else, then I do hope that I could read it prior to being deleted. Their biographies were, likely, scribed a century ago, & are likely to be "public" anyhow.


I, largely, want to learn why the chronology seems to conflict, as I wrote above.

These men had done enough to earn many more pages, although they, likely, never had heard any word similar to "internet". For them, the phrase "movie theater" was new:

The first theater dedicated exclusively to showing motion pictures was Vitascope Hall, established on Canal Street, New Orleans, Louisiana in 1896. The first permanent structure designed for screening of movies was Tally's Electric Theater, completed in 1902 in Los Angeles, California. The 1913 opening of the Regent Theater in New York City signalled a new respectability for the medium, and the start of the two-decade heyday of American cinema design. Los Angeles promoter Sid Grauman began the trend of theatre-as-destination with his ornate "Million Dollar Theatre" (the first to signify its primary use for motion pictures with the "theatre" spelling), which opened on Broadway in downtown Los Angeles in 1918.

Louis_Aimée_Augustin_Le_Prince; Louis_Aimé_Augustin_Le_Prince.

Thank You.

hopiakuta 15:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

< http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eli_H._Janney&diff=78511703&oldid=78353683 >.

I have been having difficulty reading my own comments; I am, therefore, reinserting them, in a fashion similar to what I had originally written. I rarely delete; I rarely revert. I contend that there is very little that any person should prevent another person from saying.

I had, originally, come here regarding Andrew Jackson Beard, who continues to have no article. I do wish that I could gain the confidence to write it.

Please see:

cupola;

cupola (disambiguation);

caboose.

Thank You.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 16:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other than the fact that the Janney coupler is used in rail transport, I don't see the connection to the cupola or caboose articles. As for an article on Beard, why not start one with the information that you already have? If we look back at the original question that you raised of chronology between the two men, it seems quite reasonable to me to believe that Beard developed an improvement to the original Janney coupler twenty years after the original's introduction. It is also possible that Beard independently developed a similar coupler design of his own, but I find this possibility highly unlikely due to the US Railroad Safety Appliance Act, which was enacted in 1893 mandating air brakes and automatic couplers on equipment in interchange service by 1900. I don't remember at the moment if Beard is mentioned in the same John H White works where I found the Janney information (and they're not in front of me at the moment, but I intend to check them again when I have a chance). Have you looked through the US patent database for 1897 to find if Beard filed for a patent? There were 23,747 patents issued that year, and it's easily conceivable that one or more of them could detail coupler improvements. Slambo (Speak) 20:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Beard's coupler patent is U.S. patent 594,059; I don't have the plugin to view the images on my computer here, but it was likely filed as an improvement on Janney's original design. I've seen some texts in the past that use "Janney" and "Jenny" interchangeably, so the improvement possibility seems likely. Slambo (Speak) 20:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
John H. White Jr. devotes almost ten pages to Eli Janney in The American Railroad Freight Car: From the Wood Car Era to the Coming of Steel (Johns Hopkins University Press, 1995, ISBN 0-8018-5236-6; pp 510-518, 521), and there is no mention of Beard at all in that work. I have a copy of this book in my personal collection and I plan to further read through this book and add data as appropriate to this article. Eli Janney and his coupler design are also discussed in American Narrow Gauge Railroads (George W. Hilton, Stanford University Press, 1990, ISBN 0-8047-2369-9) to a lesser extent, and again there is no mention of Beard or his coupler enhancements.
From the lack of information on Beard in these works and the strength of the documentation on Janney and his design, I come to the conclusion that his coupler design was merely an improvement on Janney's 1873 patent design and that the modern knuckle style coupler is a direct descendant of Janney's design. Slambo (Speak) 22:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I am at a computer where I can read the text of Beard's patent (linked above), I can see that Beard is not claiming to have invented the knuckle coupler himself. Page two of the patent filing states: "My invention relates to improvements in that class of car-couplings in which horizontal jaws engage each other to connect the cars..." (U.S. patent 594,059, November 23 1897). So, Beard didn't invent the knuckle style coupler, he devised an improvement to an existing design. Slambo (Speak) 23:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When I save, I, continually, get disconnected from this website. Yuck.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 02:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

< http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AEli_H._Janney&diff=92099728&oldid=92013633 >;

< http://google.com/search?q=%22andrew+jackson+beard%22+%22%22+%22eli+hamilton%22+%22janney%22 >;

< http://google.com/search?q=%22andrew+jackson+beard%22+%22%22+%22eli%22+%22janney%22 >.

Thank You. For not editing my comment, this time. &, for your comments. You have paper-access, library-access, text-access, that I do not. I've, f/ this moment, reached my level of competence | incompetence. And you have patent-search-access. I cannot think of anything that I would add, f/ now. Words all used-up.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 02:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding "Andy":

National_Inventors_Hall_of_Fame.

Thank You.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 14:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, my only patent search access is through the publicly accessible USPTO website; as to libraries, both books I cited above are in my personal collection (I pick up a new book every few months at the model railroad shows and museums that I visit) but they should be easily obtainable through interlibrary loan at any public library. I wish I could get to the A.C. Kalmbach library in Chattanooga more easily, but it's a bit too far for a casual trip for me; the Wisconsin Historical Society library is within bicycle distance for me, but I rarely get over there now. I've started an article for Beard with information that we've collected here. Slambo (Speak) 17:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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