Talk:Ebrahim Raisi

Ultra conservative according to whom?

According to some jewish-american press he is ultra-conservative, according to the rest of the world he is a muslim

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2022/09/13/a_brief_history_of_the_butcher_of_tehran_579496.html

Ebrahim Raisi started his career in 1981 as the prosecutor of Karaj and Hamadan Provinces. He played a leading role in persecuting minorities, especially the Bahais, and political opponents that left untold numbers dead, tortured, and jailed. 2600:4040:5F0A:5500:CC14:BEFE:BD7B:614B (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Motahari is not a university, it is an Islamic madreseh. Please correct. 2603:8000:107:DFE8:F57E:B1A6:189B:AD3B (talk) 18:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello, okay, but who gave him this name in the Western press? I don't see any Iranian, Eastern, or Asian articles using this nickname. And in all the Western articles we can read, he is called 'the Butcher of Tehran' because... but called by whom? And when? This nickname seems like propaganda. Tiktak11 (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

it look likes, this nickname was gived first by the iranian opposition :

https://www.ncr-iran.org/en/publications/special-reports/iran-who-is-ebrahim-raisi/

that the earliest record of this nickname ... Tiktak11 (talk) 10:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

He is part of the Iranian principlists faction, which is described as right wing, or hardliner. It might be better to use internal Iranian terminology, then to cite who interprets this as hardline or conservative. Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe, after reflection, that the Iranian opposition (accused of terrorism in Iran and who participated in the Iran-Iraq war on the side of Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the 1980s), gave him the nickname 'Butcher of Tehran' because of the repression/struggle/war against the People's Mujahedin. Apparently, the only reference we find dates back to 2020 in a document by the NCR, composed of the People's Mujahedin organization. I don't know if it's correct to leave this on the page - 'Butcher of Tehran' - as it is clearly either an invented name in the context of propaganda following his election, or a nickname given by the People's Mujahedin (on the European Union's list of terrorist organizations until 2009). Tiktak11 (talk) 08:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Women's rights section doesn't read very neutral

Don't get me wrong, I think the information presented is valid, but the wording "In fact, Iran has one of the world's worst records for human rights, thus Raisi's statements must be taken with extreme caution." after his (apparent) feminist view points comes across as a gotcha moment. I feel like it could be reworded slightly, maybe replacing the 'in fact' with 'Despite these comments' or something along those lines.--Amelia-the-comic-geek (talk) 01:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Raisi and violation of human rights in Iran

He has played a huge role in the violation of human rights in Iran and throughout the Middle East. This issue should be mentioned better and with more information in the article. His role in the killing of Iranian women and children is not mentioned too. FreeZoneF (talk) 08:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Came here to say this. Just read that he was responsible for the executions of 5000 political prisoners in 1988 alone, which if I’m reading correctly, was a violation of international law. Viriditas (talk) 11:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You have to provide at least one source that mentions his violation of human rights and, if the comment above is true, the claimed execution of political prisoners. Saying just "add more about x because it should be in the article" without providing sources is not valid. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 13:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@FreeZoneF.Yep, you just gotta show a reliable source of info for this to be a good edit request, then it can be added in. Garef 14:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I’m also surprised we don’t have a single photo of the thousands of public lynchings by cranes that are available. It’s like someone is trying to sanitize Wikipedia. The Iranian regime executed hundreds to thousands just under his presidency alone, something like 40% or more were executed for nonviolent crimes alone. Viriditas (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You know the difference between 'lynching' and 'hanging'? No? Ahh, ok.

2001:16B8:C711:5800:7096:D117:F1F9:4E5A (talk) 00:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Really? "The Iranian government summarily, extrajudicially, and secretly executed thousands of political prisoners held in Iranian jails in the summer of 1988. According to Human Rights Watch the majority of prisoners had had unfair trials by the revolutionary courts, and in any case had not been sentenced to death." Hope you enjoyed the education. Viriditas (talk) 03:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Place of death

Some sources (like these ones https://www.maisoncarne.es/2024/qu-cks/2081947GMsDA2241PDbNS/ ; https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/raisi-iran-president-helicopter-crash/index.html) say that the helicopter carrying Ebrahim Raisi crashed near the village of Tavil, not near Julfa as we report. 2A02:B021:F06:8DEE:BBC:AA83:B38:2B11 (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Given that Tavil and Jolfa are only around 60 miles apart, it's likely that the crash occurred somewhere between the two. _Dial^mayo 15:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The sources disagree on this matter, but as you say the helicopter crash probably occurred between Tavil and Julfa. 2A02:B021:F06:8DEE:BBC:AA83:B38:2B11 (talk) 15:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has the exact coordinates of the crash. Sadustu Tau (talk) 18:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Nickname inclusion violates the impartiality principle

The inclusion of the nickname in the infobox goes against Wikipedia's stance of political neutrality and impartiality, as it is mostly used by his detractors and is not a universally accepted nickname for Raisi. It should be removed. 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:4F6:9D4B:AD2D:9A5F (talk) 04:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This amounts to name-calling at best
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
How is it not universally accepted? Am I a detractor if I am opposed to extrajudicial killings that lack due process, fair trials, and an independent judiciary? Sorry, some of us want to live in 2024, not 1024. Viriditas (talk) 05:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Raisi was elected, it means he he had supporters. "extrajudicial" is another ideologically charged word: the iranian judiciary is indeed independent, it just isn't secular 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:4F6:9D4B:AD2D:9A5F (talk) 06:14, 21 May 2024 (UTC) The state butchered children of high school age and young adults of college age because they were ideologically left of center, did not embrace forced religion, and supported feminism. If that’s not butchery I don’t know what is. "I am beginning to suspect that whoever is incapable of recognizing this may be incapable of morality." Viriditas (talk) 07:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC) If you think that anyone who is not a leftist is incapable of morality, I suggest you leave this website, because your bias and emotions could jeopardize the quality of the articles of this encyclopedia. I also suggest you learn the difference between butchery (the killing of animals for meat consumption) and the enforcement of death penalty in a legal system. 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:11D7:CEFF:5086:CE6F (talk) 20:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC). He killed less children than crazy netenyahu or genocide Joe. Such propaganda I find it extremely strange that your takeaway from what I wrote is "anyone who is not a leftist is incapable of morality". I was referencing the famous quote by James Baldwin which has nothing to do with politics. I'm not surprised you aren't familiar with it, since things like freedom, civil rights, compassion, empathy, and all the rest have no meaning for you. The quote refers to the fact that the 13 year old children that the Butcher of Tehran murdered are the children of the world; human rights don't end at the borders of nation states, the extend everywhere, and some of us like myself believe that they are, in fact, trans-human, and extend to plants and animals and all living things. But that's clearly way too much for you to handle, so I will provide you with the original quote: "The children are always ours, every single one of them, all over the globe; and I am beginning to suspect that whoever is incapable of recognizing this may be incapable of morality." See? Nothing to do with politics, so you appear to be a prisoner of your own preconceptions. If I don't leave this website, will you issue a fatwa against me? I welcome it. I will challenge your nonsense until the day I breathe my last breath. Bring it. Your ignorance of English is obvious. "Butchery" refers to the killing of animals and humans. Surely they have dictionaries in your part of the world? As for your repeated distortions, there was no "enforcement of death penalty in a legal system" in regards to the Butcher of Tehran. This is documented in the article on the subject which I quoted in the above section. You really need to stop with the nonsense, nobody is falling for it. Viriditas (talk) 22:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC) We go by what WP:RS say. In addition to the RS in the article already, in their obituaries, a summation of how RS view the individual's legacy, many RS in international media ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], include the Butcher of Tehran moniker. Not including so would not be properly representing RS, which is what Wikipedia is based on . This doesn't take away from Raisi's popularity or suggest that he wasn't popular or elected (it could even be a factor of his popularity). Longhornsg (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC) I only see Western sources applying this nickname to him though. Not Eastern sources. So I suspect there may be some ideological bias. 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:11D7:CEFF:5086:CE6F (talk) 20:04, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Your interpretation of reality is completely and totally backwards. The ideological bias is in the very countries who don't freely and fairly report the butchery of Raisi, which for your education, is defined in English as the "brutal or wanton slaughter of animals or humans". The fact that right-wing, pro-Iran sources fail to report these things is indicative of ideological bias on their end, not ours. Hope this helps! Viriditas (talk) 22:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC) I don't see the Wikipedia article on George Bush calling him a butcher for committing war crimes against millions of Iraqis and Afghans. I don't understand why a judge should get called a butcher for enforcing a death penalty. Wikipedia is not the place to hear your opinions, if you hate Islam that's up to you but don't try to enforce your islamophobic racist white supremacist views on the readers. Hope this helps! 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:11D7:CEFF:5086:CE6F (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC) It looks like you are incapable of dealing with things like data, facts, evidence, history, science, etc. I would like to suggest that Wikipedia is not the place for you, because without a good, solid understanding of the difference between intentionally distorting reality (aka "lying") and reporting facts, you will continue to have trouble here. It may be the case that at a very deep level, you think that there is no difference between lies and facts; this is a common phenomenon. For example, you bring up Bush, and curiously enough, his White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove has a long history of this kind of thing; so you're in good company, and share a lot in common! Strange bedfellows, as we say. This isn't so unusual, actually, considering the fact that American conservatives and the Iranian regime were in bed together in the 1980s, and that the US helped support authoritarian nations who targeted left-wing elements of their population. The examples are many. And, since you bring up religion, there are a lot of commonalities between right-wing, authoritarian theocracies like Iran and the hopes and wishes and plans of right-wing authoritarian conservatives in the US, who have said that they would like America to become a more Christianized version of Iran; if Trump is re-elected, they have plans, like Project 2025, to turn the United States into a theocracy. I notice that you also conveniently changed the subject from the Butcher of Tehran to multiple topics in rapid procession, from war crimes of Bush, to Islam, to Islamophobia, to racism and white supremacy. This is the infamous Gish gallop fallacy often used by creationists. That's an interesting coincidence. For the record, I'm a secular humanist who identifies as an atheist. I believe that people should both have the freedom to practice their religion and be completely free from religion in civil society (strict separation between church and state). This position does not make me an Islamophobe, although some people are rightly afraid of religions who threaten their very survival. In the US we have violent Christian nationalists who represent a similar threat as Islamists do elsewhere. Those who are afraid of religious people trying to kill them doesn't make them an "Islamophobe" or "anti-Christian", so I directly challenge your statement and call it nonsense. Keep your religion to yourself and out of my government. It's that simple. Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Both @Viriditasand 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:11D7:CEFF:5086:CE6F seems to be taking extreme positions charged with emotions, ideological defence and self-righteousness. This cannot be unproblematically solved. @Viriditas, you have identified as American and seems to lean more quite a lot to the left. Nearly 80% of Americans views Iran unfavourably Ihikky (talk) 08:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Both @Viriditas and 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:11D7:CEFF:5086:CE6F seem to be taking extreme positions, charged with emotions, ideological defence, and self-righteousness. Such discussions are complex and cannot be easily resolved.

@Viriditas, you have identified as American and appear to lean significantly to the left. It's important to note that nearly 80% of Americans view Iran unfavorably. and you should consider the impact of in-group bias against Iran.

Yes, Iran needs significant improvements in human rights, and it would be foolish not to recognize the countless voices who have suffered or who seek change. However, we should also acknowledge that Iranian leaders largely want the best for their people, even if there are challenges.

In the interest of fostering a productive and respectful dialogue, I urge both parties to exercise restraint and consider each other's perspectives with an open mind. Let’s aim for a more balanced and constructive conversation.

I believe both of you are taking extreme positions. Describing Raisi as a "butcher" is as exaggerated as those who are embellishing his life and tenure. Ihikky (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I just believe an encyclopedia should use a neutral language and calling someone a "butcher" is not a neutral language, especially if you use Israeli news websites as a source as this article does. 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:5C74:771E:9030:6182 (talk) 20:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Being neutral means we follow the reliable sources. If a WP:WEIGHT of reliable sources call them a butcher, then it would be taking a non-neutral position to say otherwise. TarnishedPath^talk 04:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Israeli and Western sources are not reliable when it comes to Iran. They are biased 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:7136:C0C8:F8ED:5F17 (talk) 04:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

You should see how far you get with that proposition at WP:RS/N. I suspect it wouldn't be very far. TarnishedPath^talk 04:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Iranian leaders largely want the best for their people. That claim is incompatible with their demonstrated actions, which include butchering children. TarnishedPath^talk 04:05, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

You are from Australia. What would you know about the will of the Iranian people. If Iranian leaders are butcher, why millions of Iranians vote for them and attend their funerals? 2A04:EE41:0:62C8:7136:C0C8:F8ED:5F17 (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Trying to make the topic about me really doesn't help your argument. TarnishedPath^talk 04:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 May 2024

Add this according to your preference and modification into his "Death" section

Raisi had died in a helicopter crash on 19 May, 2024 around 10:00 GMT. He was flying in an Bell 212 when about 30 minutes into the flight, officials lost contact with the aircraft. At about 1:30 GMT, rescuers spotted the wreckage from a distance from about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from the city of Varzaqan and then took about an hour to reach it. At the crash site, there were no signs of life, including the president's. Ayatollah Mohammad Ali Al-e Hashem, Ali Khamenei's representative in East Azerbaijan was actually alive for about an hour after the crash in which he made contact with the president's head of office before he died at about 11:00 GMT. There is no current known cause for the crash, except for maneuvering difficulties in heavy fog. Currently, there is no known successor to the president, but Mohammad Mokhber has been declared the current acting president of Iran. Although, Mokhber can only be the acting president for a maximum time period of 3 months before a new permanent replacement has to be nominated and approved by the Iranian Parliament.

Sources: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4nnd23d505o , https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ebrahim-raisi-iran-president-helicopter-crash-live-updates-wreckage-of-iran-presidents-crashed-helicopter-found-5702084 Dynamicontributer (talk) 08:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Dating inconsistency

In the 1988 executions section it says "Raisi's involvement in the executions gained publicly in 2016, when Hussein-Ali Montazeri released an audio recording of an August 1988 meeting of the Tehran 'death committee'." Montazeri's article says he died in 2009 so it's hard to see how he could have been releasing recordings or doing very much else at all in 2016. 130.246.57.110 (talk) 12:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Repeated sentence in "Death" section

"The United Nations Security Council stood for a minute's silence for Raisi." is said twice in the Death section. Please remove duplicate. Jdftba (talk) 21:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done TarnishedPath^talk 04:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)