Talk:Chelsea Manning

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request is the initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" is reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning.

The panel of administrators convened to review and close this discussion has unanimously reached the following determinations regarding this requested move:

1. The title of the page prior to the events in dispute was "Bradley Manning"; this was a long-term, stable title, and the brief and limited discussion prior to the initial page move to "Chelsea Manning" does not constitute the formation of community consensus to move the page. Therefore, the default title of the page absent a consensus to move the page is "Bradley Manning".
2. The discussion following the move request provided a clear absence of consensus for the page to be moved from "Bradley Manning" to "Chelsea Manning".
3. WP:BLP is applicable to article titles and the desire to avoid harming the subject presents a reasonable basis for supporting "Chelsea Manning" as the title; however, BLP does not require having "Chelsea Manning" as the title. It is not a BLP violation to maintain the title at "Bradley Manning" so long as the prior use of this name by the subject is public knowledge and can be found in reliable sources. Furthermore, the application of BLP to avoid harming the subject is mitigated by the subject's own acknowledgment that "Bradley Manning" will continue to be used in various fora, and by the fact that the name, "Bradley Manning", will inevitably appear prominently in the article lede. Therefore, BLP is not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".
4. MOS:IDENTITY is not expressly applicable to article titles, and is therefore not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".. The panel acknowledges that MOS:IDENTITY is applicable to pronouns as used in the article, and that the reversion of this title in no way implies that the subject should be addressed in the article by masculine pronouns. Although some may perceive this as leading to incongruity between the subject's name and the pronouns used throughout the article, such incongruity appears in numerous articles about subjects whose common name appears to differ from their gender.
5. WP:COMMONNAME remains the basic principle by which article titles are chosen. This policy provides several factors which are weighed in the determination of a proper article title. In the requested move discussion, a number of editors noted that "Bradley Manning" was the name under which the subject became notable and performed the actions which led to her notability; and that readers interested in these actions would be likely to search for this subject under the name, "Bradley Manning". Competing examples were provided of some reliable sources changing their usage, while some retained their previous usage. The change that did occur was not sufficient to persuade the majority of editors, including some who indicated that their minds could be changed by sufficient evidence of changed usage. Although WP:COMMONAME provides that "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change", it does not provide that no weight should be given to reliable sources published before the name change. The total mass of sources is weighted towards "Bradley Manning", and it is too soon to determine whether usage following the subject's announced name change represent an enduring trend, or a blip occasioned by reports in the news surrounding the name change itself.
6. A comparatively small number of editors premised their opinions solely on Manning's legal or biological state. These arguments are not based on anything in Wikipedia's policies, and are contrary to numerous precedents. Such arguments were expressly discounted in this determination.
7. A number of editors who supported reverting the title back to "Bradley Manning" also expressed the opinion that the common name of the subject is likely to change over a relatively short time span, this close is without prejudice to a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" being initiated no less than thirty days^* from the date of this determination, at which point those advocating the move of this page will be able to present all evidence that may arise during that time demonstrating a change in the common name of this subject as used by reliable sources. In the interim, editors may propose moving the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning".

^* The sole point as to which the closing administrators were not unanimous was the length of time that should be required to pass before a new move request to "Chelsea Manning" is proposed; one member of the panel would have required ninety days.

This was by no means an easy process, and the closing administrators recognize that any conclusion to this discussion would engender further controversy; however, we are in agreement that this result is the only proper interpretation of the discussion conducted with respect to this dispute. bd2412 T 03:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

---

Note: After carefully considering the proposal made on my talk page, I have moved this discussion to: Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request.

This move serves two purposes. First, it reduces the massive size of this talk page (the move discussion is well over 500,000 bytes). Second, it makes it very clear that the discussion has concluded, and further comments are to be made elsewhere. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Note the panel is (BD2412 (talk · contribs), BOZ (talk · contribs), Kww (talk · contribs)) NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Adding a future date so this doesn't get auto-archived. 23:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportfan5000 (talk • contribs)

In the future you can use {{DNAU}} for that. NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Pronouns

Further information: MOS:IDENTITY

Another statement from Manning's lawyer

On August 26, 2013, Manning's attorney David Edward Coombs and the Private Manning Support Network (formerly the Bradley Manning Support Network) jointly posted what they call "Additional clarification on PVT Manning's request." http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/announcing-the-private-manning-support-network It reads in part:

"While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." (Boldface in original.)

It's unclear whether PVT Manning's expectation about continuing use of male name and pronouns represents her preference or merely an acknowledgement that old usages will persist. JohnValeron (talk) 18:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's rather clear. Manning expects male pronouns to be used because that is the reality of how the topic has been discussed in these contexts. I don't see any basis that Manning has changed her preferences based on the above statement. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 18:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)

Cjarbo2, please be aware that some users have cited what they believe to be policy arguments for the move to Chelsea, and that not all users may be "advocates" for social change. CaseyPenk (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Surely though (notwithstanding my statement below), Manning's own statement puts this entire debate to bed? If he says that he expects male pronouns to be used, then we can take it as implicit acceptance that his Wikipedia article will still refer to him as "he" and "Bradley". --The Historian (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

She asked for respect and acknowledgement of of her gender identity but said that she expected that the name Bradley and male pronoun would be used in various legal contexts. That is not inconsistent with her original statement asking people to use the female pronoun and new name except in official mail to the prison. I fail to see how this is earth-shattering or in any way determinative.AgnosticAphid talk 19:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. It does take the wind out of the sails of the "must use female names/terms now!" side of the debate a tad, but in terms of having a practical effect on the Wikipedia it probably amounts to little, since we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways. Tarc (talk) 19:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

A person's gender identity is not conditional on completing the process of hormone therapy and surgery. Bearcat (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:

"gender dysphoria—broadly defined as discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth."[1]

You are of course quite entitled to disagree, and there are many fringe views on these matters. However, if you want to misuse these discussions to push your own theories about transgenderism and the process of gender reassignment, please have the courtesy not to denounce those with mainstream views as pushers of ideology or "political correctness".

If you insist on approaching the biographies of trans people with your own set of definitions, and insist on applying a standard which (as Bearcat illustrates) is unattainable, you are effectively demanding that Wikipedia should permanently reject the identities of trans people. That is a blatantly ideological position. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

It is not a fringe opinion, it is a very real one that is tied to the rejection of political correctness. I give no credence to Bearcat's "medical records are private therefore we just have to go by what the subject says", it's just too absurd to even address. Like it or not, America is fairly evenly divided between liberal and conservative ideologies, and this one of mine happens to fall on the conservative side of things. Bradley Manning simply doesn't become a woman just because he says so. You can deride that as "fringe" if that's what makes you comfortable with yourself, I really don't plan to spend much time haranguing you on why that's incorrect. But from a Wikipedia policy standpoint, we're still at the simple place and time where Manning is still regarded as a male, and generally addresses him as such. WP:COMMONNAME and all that. This whole gender affair should be consigned to a few paragraphs of his bio, maybe even a spinout article if there's enough material. Keep in mind that the primary notability here is a soldier convicted of violating the Espionage Act and about to serve a 35-year term in Ft. Leavenworth. Note that I never plan to edit-war or act tendentiously or attack other editors, I'm just working on moving the discussion here in the way I feel it should go. If the Move Request and other issues do not go the way I wish them to, I will be of course disappointed but will alo consider the matter settled. Unlike some around here, I actually respect consensus. Tarc (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

As I feared, Tarc. You reject the medical consensus as "political correctness" and proclaim your conservative ideology. And yet you denounce others for pushing what you call an ideology. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, we're arguing from unequal positions; the article should never have been moved without having this discussion first. So we started this race with your "side", as it were, already a lap ahead. So me arguing...or "denouncing" to borrow your term...is just trying to get back on equal footing. Tarc (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

We're not going to start asking homeopaths if an article on alternative medicine labelled medicine should be moved. There are no sides here, because you haven't qualified for the race; you are rejecting medical consensus in the name of some perceived right to have your opinions supersede fact. There isn't really much room for debate here. Amitabho Chattopadhyay (talk) 05:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

She has asked in very clear terms that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." The new comment just recognises that sources using her former name will still exist. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree, this just clarifies to those who want to correspond with her that they may have to use "Bradley" to get mail to her and legally the case against her is also in that name. Additionally many supporters have pictures and posters displaying the Bradley name. This doesn't change what the article is one bit from its present appearance although I'm sure the same posters will continue to argue until forced to accept consensus affirming Chelsea as the title and she/her as the commonsense and respectful pronouns. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

"...expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances...These instances include any reference to the trial" This is clear cut. Pronouns and name usage must be reverted now regarding Bradley Manning in his pre-female-announcement life. I request that the page be edited so that the male pronouns are used before Bradley's announcement. I also request that the page use the name Bradley before his announcement. IFreedom1212 (talk) 19:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I somehow read the statement like three times and missed the apparent meaning of the "reference to the trial" part of it. It's true that maybe as Tarc said it "takes the wind out of the sails" of the one side to some degree. But really, before wasn't your position that what the person themselves wanted wasn't relevant? Do you suddenly think that we should defer to the subject's wishes? How does this statement change things, really? It doesn't really address the larger question of whether it is in fact accurate to use female pronouns in this situation, a question about which there can be a reasonable difference of opinion. AgnosticAphid talk 20:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Follow-up: It's also ambiguous whether "expects to be referred to as Bradley" means "wants to be referred to as Bradley" or "realizes people will refer to her as Bradley," especially in light of her apparent further comment that she is a "realist" and "understands," discussed in the "when bradley becomes chelsea" section below. AgnosticAphid talk 16:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Information from Manning's lawyer about pronouns and the photograph

I've obtained clarification of Manning's statement today from her lawyer, David Coombs, which I'm sharing with his permission. Regarding the pronoun, he wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available.

I don't think we should rush to change the pronouns just yet. We should decide on the title first, for one thing. But I'm posting this so that we know what the lawyer's and Manning's preferences are. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this carries weight to those who reply here saying "Well this is what manning wants so...." but thanks Slim for the clarification. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

For future reference, the "current main photograph" is File:Bradley Manning US Army.jpg ("MANNING, BRADLEY PFC HEAD AND SHOULDERS 4-26-2012.jpg"). This is the US Army photo of PFC Manning in uniform in front of a US flag, made available by his lawyer, David Coombs. -- ToE 17:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• My personal interpretation of the statement would lead me to the conclusion that "change all pronouns/names in events prior to August 22, 2013 to male/Bradley && differentiate between Chelsea/Bradley on events post August 22, in addition to restoring the title to Bradley" would be the neutral, proper way of interpreting it. (And I think it could be valid. But that's just me...) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 01:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

WP should be taking a consistent approach, not treating individual subjects according to their requests (or what are interpreted as their requests).

This is useful evidence that the guidance at WP:MOSIDENTITY may be wrong-headed, but that's a discussion to be had there. Formerip (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

It certainly could use a good discussion and re-write for better language. I always thought that if the subject was notable enough for a full and lengthy article before changing gender identity, that it simply referred to them in the gender they were at the time of the events and situations being summarized. But not all living persons who are subjects of BLP articles on Wikipedia want that. There is no standard way to deal with individuals. Sorry, but there isn't. The WMF encourages us, when at all possible, to respect the wishes of the subject. Knowledgekid87, the wishes of the person, regardless of who they are, are indeed important to this article. This isn't like anyone is asking for the past to be scrubbed and clearly the subject accepts that and desires the article to reflect that. The fact that they are proud of the current image and feel it is appropriate may have little weight in what image is used, but it still has some importance and value to the discussion since we then, at least, know the subject is not rejecting the past history of Bradley Manning or asking the article to do so Thanks SlimVirgin.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:53, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Agnosticaphid asked me on my talk page to clarify what the lawyer said. I asked three questions: which title would Manning prefer; should the female pronoun be used throughout for all life stages; and is the April 2012 photograph in uniform still appropriate as the lead image? I also asked permission to share his views on the talk page, and he agreed.

In response he linked to his most recent blog post, then he addressed the WP article.

His reply about the title was a little ambiguous. He wrote: "I would go with Chelsea Manning (formerly known as Bradley Manning) or do two separate entries by maintaining Bradley Manning and creating a link to Chelsea Manning." I wasn't sure whether that meant Chelsea Manning or Chelsea Manning (formerly known as Bradley Manning). At first I thought by "two separate entries" he meant two articles, but I think he just meant a redirect. I've asked for clarification but haven't received a response yet.

Regarding the pronouns, he wrote: "Female pronouns should be used for only post-announcement material." Regarding the photograph: "Chelsea is proud of that photo and would want you to use that until she can provide a better photo at some point in the future."

I've forwarded the email to BD2412. Hope this helps. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:49, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Chelsea Manning has done nothing notable post coming out. Furthermore, I don't think Manning's lawyer will be using pronouns like "she" or "Chelsea" in future court filings. The name switch and gender change should be a section in the article about "Bradley Manning". Manning will not receive mail addressed to Chelsea. Manning will not be housed in a female penitentary. Will we now have to change every article on "male prisons" because some may contain people that identify as female? I think not. Manning will contradict his own announcement when he files motions that refer to himself as Bradley Manning and any pronouns in those documents will be masculine pronouns. The first time he does this officially, do we move the article back because he then refers to himself as "Bradley" again? --DHeyward (talk) 13:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I made some changes on this article.

Briefly: I changed the pronouns in this article up to his gender change. I changed them for two reasons, first BLP demands accurate information and trumps pretty much everything else, however, I agree that a person is the best source for information about what they think and believe (WP:V). So, all of the narrative up to his announcement of a gender change, I changed all pronouns to male (never mind the fact that the feminine pronoun in sentances like "She announced her self as female " or " She appeared in a photograph dressed as a woman " look ridiculous. All of the pronouns after he announced his gender change to a female (he hasn't changed it yet, and is still very much a man ) were left as female, again, because here it becomes very much BLP vs V (not to mention that a lot of the news stories prior to his gender change referred to him as male ).

I won't edit war on this, I'll make that change only one time. Feel free to revert if you feel strongly or discuss.

 KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  19:08, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

You also removed her new name from the lede and stripped the identification of her as a transgendered person. Moreover, you changed pronouns that refer to the future tense - "he will serve his sentence" which is no longer true, because she will serve her sentence. While the other pronoun issues might be debatable, it is not debatable that her new name should be mentioned in the lede. So yes, I have reverted you. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Not quite, he's still Bradley Manning , legally and therefore , yes he will serve his sentance is correct. Notice that from the moment he declared a gender change, I left the feminine pronouns in. It's as I explained it, he started off life as man , therefore, masculine pronouns are appropriate, per BLP and V, however, the second he declared his desire to become a woman,in the article, the masculine pronoun becomes inappropriate, the feminine pronoun becomes appropriate per V, now if he decides go through with his gender change, then at that time, the entire gender pronoun may change to all feminine (like Billy Tipton ).

Bottom line, this proposed change takes both BLP and V into consideration without stricly favoring one over the other (as both are policy ). BLP and V for historical portions of his story, prior to his announcement that he wants to change his gender to a woman, and V a bit stronger for the portion of the story thereafter (as people are considered verifiable for what they think and believe). You follow ?  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  19:34, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, for crying out loud, until and unless MOS:IDENTITY changes, follow MOS:IDENTITY: That means retrospectively using the person's preferred pronouns. Cam94509 (talk) 19:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Again, as has been explained many, many times here, one does not have to go through any legal process to change one's name and at any rate, there is no policy or guideline that requires Wikipedia to use a person's "legal name" anywhere. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Per MOS:IDENTITY, Manning should be referred to by female pronouns throughout the article. See George Sand for a comparable situation. The decision to keep the article name as Bradley is separate from a conversation/consensus about pronoun usage. (Note, I was not logged in when I first made this comment, so it will show up as an IP in the page history). NewAccount4Me (talk) 19:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Mos Identity is a guideline, BLP and V are policy. Policy always trumps everything else, once again , see Billy Tipton. Billy Tipton was born and died a female, but lived as a male. In that article, V is used to always refer to Billy Tipton as he. This is a simliar situation. Bradley Manning, at this time, is male, is referred to is various reliable sources as "Bradley Manning" and a plethora of masculine pronouns. At least, in this article, prior to his decision to change his gender, he needs to be refered to with masculine pronouns (BLP and V --- I also remind you that MOS:IDENTITY is being disputed right now, and is a guideline only ). Once we get to the section in the article where he states he wants to change his gender, it's acceptable to use a feminine pronoun, per V ( again , policy). By the way, George Sand is not comparable, "George Sand" was a psuedonym for a female writer who is referred to as female throughout the article. Bradley Mannings legal name as of this second, is Mr. Bradley Manning, and he's legally male at this time.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  20:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no BLP violation when referring to an article subject by their self-professed gender. Had that information come from TMZ or some non-reputable blog, it would be a BLP violation, but as this info came from a public statement from the subject themselves, it is clearly not a BLP violation. There is no validity in a WP:V argument. My use of Sand as an example is to provide a situation where the article's title and pronouns used are in seeming opposition to one another, but work for the subject in question. There is no "need" for us to rush to discard MOS:IDENTITY at this time. I'd say wait two or three weeks, and then start a reasoned discussion on the talkpage, after the heat from the RM has calmed down, and find a consensus among users about appropriate pronoun usage on this article. NewAccount4Me (talk) 20:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Eh? As far as I can tell, Billy Tipton lived a big chunk of his life identifying both privately and publicly, until his death, as male. The fact he had female anatomy which was made public around the time of his death doesn't mean he 'died female', there's no evidence he changed his mind and identified as female at the time of his death, in fact logic would suggest this was not the case since he was dying or dead. In other words, the example you've chosen actually supports us using female pronouns just as we use male pronouns for Billy. As NewAccount4Me has said, there's clearly no basis for a BLP argument to use male pronouns, quite the opposite in fact, nor is there a V one since the fact that Chelsea identifies as female and female pronouns are preferred by her and used by other sources is clearly verifiable. Nil Einne (talk) 20:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Tell you what, I'll suspend the BLP argument, and just use V (Verification ), because I agree, verification is extremely important for a living person. So, let see what the sources in this article tell us:

In Summary: 60 + sources refer to Bradley Manning as Male, including one that refers to his announced gender change, which , although it acknowledges the gender change, uses all male pronouns to refer to Bradley Manning versus 4 that refer to Bradley Manning as a woman, including 1 reference from his defense that talks about an "alter ego". Just on basis of Verifiable references (even if you exclude Salon.com and Huffington Post) you still have a ton of verifiable sources referring to Bradley Manning as male. The references to Bradley Manning as female become very questionable when the reference attributed to Bradley Manning's defense is used. So.... long story short, just on verifiable data, Bradley Manning should be referred to as male through the article.

(raw data below --- it's long, so it's collapsed already )

Sources that refer to Bradley Manning as male and Sources that refer to Bradley Manning as female - Warning, a bit long

References to Bradley Manning as a Male References to Bradley Manning as Female http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/21/bradley-manning-35-years-prison-wikileaks-sentence http://www.today.com/news/i-am-chelsea-read-mannings-full-statement-6C10974052 http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/judge-to-announce-verdict-in-bradley-manning-case-today/2013/07/29/e894a75c-f897-11e2-afc1-c850c6ee5af8_story.html http://www.today.com/news/bradley-manning-i-want-live-woman-6C10974915 || http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/manning-verdict/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/bradley-manning-comes-out-as-transgendered-i-am-a-female/2013/08/22/0ae67750-0b25-11e3-8974-f97ab3b3c677_story.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/us/bradley-manning-verdict.html?_r=0 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/bradley-manning-defense-reveals-alter-ego-named-brianna-manning http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/30/bradley-manning-wikileaks-judge-verdict http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/judge-to-sentence-bradley-manning-today/2013/08/20/85bee184-09d0-11e3-b87c-476db8ac34cd_story.html http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/ || http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs/ http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/ManningPreferralofCharges.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/lifestyle/magazine/2011/manning/manning_charges.pdf http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41876046/ns/us_news-security/#.UiPTa1Mimto http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57571812/bradley-manning-enters-guilty-pleas-in-wikileaks-case http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/manning-serve-sentence-famous-leavenworth-20023673 http://nymag.com/news/features/bradley-manning-2011-7/index1.html http://web.archive.org/web/20110429142813/http://thislandpress.com/09/23/2010/private-manning-and-the-making-of-wikileaks-2/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23780581 http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-08-14/world/41408520_1_bradley-manning-former-army-intelligence-analyst-military-judge http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/21/bradley-manning-lonely-soldier-childhood http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/03/13/Under-the-US-Supreme-Court-Bradley-Manning-WikiLeaks-martyr/UPI-44541300001400 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/us/09manning.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/who-is-wikileaks-suspect-bradley-manning/2011/04/16/AFMwBmrF_print.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/wikileaks/bradley-manning/interviews/brian-manning.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/wikileaks/bradley-manning/interviews/jordan-davis.html http://www.edcaesar.co.uk/article.php?article_id=53 http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/portrait-mind-bradley-manning/68341 http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/who-is-wikileaks-suspect-bradley-manning/2011/04/16/AFMwBmrF_print.html http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/28/bradley-manning-video-transcript-wikileaks http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/18/bradley-manning-wikileaks-hearing http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/12/bradley-manning-court-martial-sentencing http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7918632/Bradley-Manning-suspected-source-of-Wikileaks-documents-raged-on-his-Facebook-page.html http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/12/19/letter_suggests_manning_wanted_to_make_history http://technology.inquirer.net/6977/investigators-link-wikileaks-suspect-to-assange http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/world/middleeast/07wikileaks.html http://www.theage.com.au/national/wikileaks-has-more-us-secrets-assange-says-20130305-2fihd.html http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/13/bradley-manning-email-drag-photo-sentencing http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8964543/Bradley-Manning-attacked-female-soldier-and-sent-picture-of-himself-as-a-woman.html http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/27/bradley-manning-us-military-outsider http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/12/19/letter_suggests_manning_wanted_to_make_history http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/16wiki.html http://www.salon.com/2011/09/02/wikileaks_28/singleton/ (Questionable notability ) http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/12/adrian-lamo-bradley-manning http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak http://www.salon.com/2010/06/18/wikileaks_3/singleton/ http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/02/national/main20038464.shtml?tag=breakingnews http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/30/bradley-manning-keeping-sane-madness http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/05/AR2011030503624.html http://abcnews.go.com/US/final-arguments-pfc-mannings-wikileaks-case/story?id=15215559#.T4EUD9XNjZw http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/11/AR2011031106542.html http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/04/bradley-manning-jail-conditions-improve http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/30/us/30brfs-PANELSAYSWIK_BRF.html?ref=bradleyemanning http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/foreign-affairs-defense/wikisecrets/what-happened-at-bradley-mannings-hearing-this-week http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/12/army-manning-hearing http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/bradley-manning-offers-guilty-pleas/story?id=17674599#.UKasVIauWk8 http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/judge-refuses-to-dismiss-charges-against-wikileaks-suspect-bradley-manning/2013/01/08/2eab1f62-59cb-11e2-beee-6e38f5215402_story.html http://m.cnn.com/primary/cnnd_fullarticle?topic=newsarticle&category=cnnd_latest&articleId=cnn/2013/08/14/us/manning-sentencing&cookieFlag=COOKIE_SET http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/14/20020933-im-sorry-that-i-hurt-the-united-states-bradley-manning-apologizes-in-court http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/08/bradley-manning-im-sorry-i-hurt-the-us.html http://www.today.com/health/beginning-gender-change-prison-long-shot-6C10974050 (Discusses his gender change, but still refers to him with masculine pronouns) http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42770631/ns/us_news-security/t/did-obama-taint-wikileaks-suspects-right-fair-trial/#.UiPV8dJwon0 http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/04/22/video-of-obama-on-bradley-manning-he-broke-the-law

 KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  00:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, no. You ignore the fact that once something has changed, it's changed. The references from before Manning announced her transition are effectively irrelevant, because they are artifacts of a previous status. They became outdated the moment she expressed her gender identity publicly. They might apply historically, and that is a matter for reasonable debate. But facing forward, there is simply no question that Manning is now female and we will use her expressed name and identity.

There is absolutely nothing "questionable" about the sources reporting her transition. Every major news organization in North America, and many overseas, have reported on it. There is no evidence presented by you or anyone else that there is any reason to doubt that Manning made the statements that she did. Unless you have any such evidence, those reliable sources are controlling: Chelsea Manning announced her transition, is now a woman and that's pretty much the end of it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Irregardless of whether these references are from before Bradley Manning stated he'd change his gender, they're still reliable references that refer to Bradley Manning as Male. The bulk of the resources refer to him as male. As of this second, he's still male, legally and biologically. Once he decides, if he decides, to go Christine Jorgensen, and legally change his name (I ' actually planned to change my name at one point and can tell you that it's a legal prodceedure, nothing big or anything, you submitt a form with your given name and the name you want to change it to, swearing under penalty of perjury that you're not a felon, and you're not trying to escape any existing debts or legal obligations. Once that change is granted, then you change your identification, which is also a legal process as you're swearing under penalty of perjury that the name you are changing your ID to (and credit cards, and everything else ) is your legal name '.) THEN' and only then can we think about call him his female name. He's still a male per the military, he's still a male biologically and still a male legally. We further have an assload of sources (reliable ones, even if we remove Huffington Post and Salon ) that refer to Bradley Manning as male. Reliable Sources and BLP (IE We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. and All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.[2] Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing.

That Bradley Manning is a male is sourced reliably, even in a source that actually talks in detail about his gender change .
That Bradley Manning is a male is also verified via the same sources.
That Bradley Manning is a male is also a matter of legal record ( Current Military Records, Current Legal ID, etc...)
That Bradley Manning is a male is a matter, in this case, of his present circumstance, the military will not provide him with hormones, nor surgery, nor female clothes, nor wigs, nor anything else pertaining to a woman. He is, at present, still dressed and living as a biological male.

Break as this is getting T/L

When any individual transitions from one gender to another (in this case, male to female) they must live as that gender for a period of 1 year and undergo counseling during that period. Once that one year period is complete, they can then start hormone treatments, get the various surgeries needed to change their biology. Manning is doing none of these, therefore, he's still in every sense of the word male. He's a male, period.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  10:52, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• Kosh, you're just... incredibly wrong. I don't know how else to put it. The MoS has been very clear for some time on what to do here, and your refusal to abide by that is disruptive. We don't get to decide what gender someone is. If you want to change the guideline, there's ways to do that, but this is not it. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 12:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Pink, go ahead and prove it. (Not a challenge, but a request) I've given evidence using verifiable evidence and your response is to say I'm simply wrong, so show me where or how.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  15:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Weight given to Manning's request regarding pronoun usage

On 26 August, 2013, David Edward Coombs (Chelsea Manning's attorney) released a statement:

"[...] she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances."

This has been properly identified by many above not as an expression of her personal desire, but more of a realization of the reality of the situation.

However, on 27 August 2013, SlimVirgin reported receiving an email from David Coombs, and stated that,

"Regarding the pronoun, he [David Coombs] wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available."

Should weight be given to Manning's request, with male pronouns used for pre-announcement material, or do we follow WP:IDENTITY's guideline of retroactively applying female pronouns, in opposition to her request? -- ToE 21:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Modify IDENTITY because it's stupid.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

Bradley Manning → Private Manning – This has already been discussed briefly at the article talk page, where most editors who opined were supportive. The National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association (NLGJA) recommends not using one name to the exclusion of the other, but rather to use the old name when writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender.[2] We already have an article titled Colonel Sanders, and the CS Monitor just came out with this headline on August 25: "'Bradley' or 'Chelsea' – What to call Pvt. Manning?" Manning's website is called the Private Manning Support Network. It was changed to this name on Aug 26, 2013, after being previously called the Bradley Manning Support Network. So, "Private Manning" is an excellent title per NPOV and also self-identification. Per common, one way to check for commonality is to do a Google search. By that standard, "Bradley Manning" (16,000,000 hits) is much more common than "Chelsea Manning" (3,240,000 hits). I get 136,000,000 hits searching for private or pfc manning on Google. Another advantage of moving our title to "Private Manning" is that it's very informative to indicate the person is a soldier in our article title. Of course, there are other ways to do the search. For example, if I search for "private manning" OR "pfc Manning" OR "private bradley manning" OR "pfc Bradley manning" OR "private chelsea manning" OR "PFC chelsea manning" then I get 43,900,000 hits. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Survey

• oppose What hell is "Private"??? BrianLune (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.46.249.171 (talk) 11:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, While I was in support of this at first, Manning was most notable under the name Bradley. Also please read WP:GHITS in regards to ghits. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• oppose I think we should wait 30 days. By then there may be sourcing to move to Chelsea. Private is an interim solution and not needed, Bradley is still the dominant search term. Please don't quote bogus google search numbers - past around 1000 hits they are wild guesstimates and actual hits May be off by several orders of magnitude, so your numbers are literally meaningless.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:38, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• support At least in the interim, this seems like a good compromise position to take, and creates less conflict between the pronouns MOS:IDENTITY requires us to useand our title. Given that the RM closure explicitly allows for this proposal to be made, I think it's a good thing to do especially because it had a reasonable amount of support above. I'm not sure exactly what the formal process is to propose an article be moved, or I'd just straight up do that. Cam94509 (talk) 04:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Honestly, I'd rather see it titled after a non-existent woman's name than I would renamed to this. It is a good-faith attempt at compromise, sure, but you simply can't name a person by something as ephemeral as a military rank, Private Benjamin and Corporal Clegg notwithstanding. Tarc (talk) 04:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the "good faith" remark, Tarc, which I reciprocate. But I disagree that the rank is ephemeral, any more than a maiden name is ephemeral, or Colonel Sanders is ephemeral. We know that he's going to retain the rank for decades to come, unless the world blows up first. Nice context for the word "ephemeral" BTW.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

A Kentucky colonel is an honorary title though, and in Sanders case it became part of his public persona. I don't see that as the same as a genuine military rank. Tarc (talk) 05:07, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I freely admit that the Sanders analogy is not perfect (if he was transgender then it was kept as secret as his recipe).Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

• Weak Support Private Manning would be a suitable compromise while we wait the 30 days (or more), and would help avoid the confusion of a page named Bradley referring to she. However, I'm also content to just let the dust settle now, and are there any other military articles on real people in the form of Rank Last name? Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 04:44, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, Colonel Sanders - who isn't even a Colonel. Private Manning is the more neutral and less argumentative option here; if we want this page to avoid a stand either way, Private Manning is a decent choice I feel. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 04:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support &n-dash; but only because Private Manning is a better title than Bradley Manning and an interim solution that is less offensive while waiting for sanity to prevail and the appropriate name to Chelsea Manning to be implemented is justifiable. EdChem (talk) 04:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support per EdChem. FeydHuxtable (talk) 05:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. While this is a clever attempt at compromise, it's Abraham Lincoln, not President Lincoln. As for the final title, unless she manages to become more famous post-transition than he was pre-, it's Bradley Manning, not Chelsea Manning, and no number of snide comments about "sanity" will change that. --erachima talk 05:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: This opens another brand new can of worms - do we call him "Private Manning", or "PFC Manning"? Which title should we choose, and why? That kind of discussion has already taken before, and it was also a messy one. There has been arguments that "calling him Private is demeaning", "calling him PFC is incorrect because he was stripped of that rank", "the majority of notable events took place when he was PFC", "he has bad relationship with the military", et cetera, made by other people earlier on. We're just going to end up being even more divided. --benlisquare_T•C•E 05:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

PFC stands for "Private First Class". It's just a flavor of private. Likewise, there are several flavors of general, but it's okay to call all of them generals.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support While the article title should be Chelsea Manning, it has been decided to not just refuse to make this common-sense change, but to undo it and refuse to reconsider the matter for a month. This proposal would, at least, be a better option than pointlessly offending readers and editors. MaxHarmony (talk) 06:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - weird title that's worse than either name option - David Gerard (talk) 07:07, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. One can (and we have done so at length) argue whether Bradley or Chelsea is the common name of the subject. It's definitely not "Private Manning", though. Obviously, the current "Bradley Manning" is much better known.--FoxyOrange (talk) 07:45, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose – I doubt anybody knows or refers to her by that name, and this would also suggest that she is a private person, i.e. that she is not disclosing her name (which is not true). This is not a good compromise. Heymid (contribs) 08:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose – A poor compromise. "Private Manning" is clearly not the common name: if you'd used quotation marks in your search, you'd have gotten less than a million hits for "private" and "pfc" combined. Although I supported reverting back to "Bradley" in the previous move discussion, I will be happy to support "Chelsea" after a reasonable period of time and evidence that the new name is sticking in our sources. – Smyth\^talk 12:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Policy, naming conventions and consensus dictate that this article be named Chelsea Manning. Josh Gorand (talk) 12:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support. Weird indeed, as David said, but neutral. Oppose. Silly idea. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 13:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC) 17:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose – although I find the implicit sprit of compromise in this request refreshing, even admirable. "Private" is not the common name. I favor waiting the 30 days and re-assessing at that time. Skyraider (talk) 14:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. For one thing, there's supposed to be a moratorium on move requests. For another, the proposed name is clearly not superior to one of the two alternatives suggested in the earlier request; the dispute is over which one. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 16:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

In case you missed it in the move request resolution, the closing administrators prohibited only a move request to "Chelsea Manning" in the next 30 days. The resolution explicitly allows for a change such as the one being proposed here. Here's the relevant passage:

In the interim, editors may propose moving the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning".

CaseyPenk (talk) 19:59, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - horrific title, very vague, not common, not widely sourced. Red Slash 16:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support If it's good enough for America's most celebrated Army hero Alvin York to be known as Sergeant York then there's no good reason to oppose America's most notorious convicted Army criminal being known as Private Manning — Preceding unsigned comment added by TeddyTesseract (talk • contribs) 16:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• That's factually inaccurate though: Sergeant York is the film, Alvin C. York is the biopage. --erachima talk 19:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose We should use the vernacular, which can be identified by using the media as reference. Colonel Sanders is the vernacular for Harlan Sanders, that is the usage here despite the fact that he was never even a Colonel.Two kinds of pork (talk) 16:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Not a good solution. "Private Manning" is not a common name for Manning. With the exception of those known by names that include professional titles, we generally do not 'use' those titles. (I think WP:CREDENTIAL would apply to military rank, c.f. Colin Powell) OSborn ^arf_contribs. 16:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. What a copout. — Richard BB 20:10, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I guess that depends upon what you think Wikipedia's responsibilities and commitments are.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose His current rank is merely a technicality for the duration of his incarceration. He did not gain notoriety with this rank and the name Bradley is just fine. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I think you are already aware, but please note that Manning prefers to be referred to using feminine pronouns. Many other editors have expressed a similar desire and MOS:IDENTITY asks that we use the person's preferred pronouns in article prose. You may wish to consider their perspectives if you have not already, or consider them again. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not going to happen. I will continue to refer to him as a male as long as he has a dick and a Y chromosome. This has already been discussed. IFreedom1212 (talk) 06:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose For the same reason as the last name, the common name is Bradley Manning. That's what the sources say, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:38, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME. While we do get creative with novel and descriptive titles for contrived topics like List of districts of India that are not directly referenced in reliable sources, for topics that are directly referenced in reliable sources, like all individuals sufficiently notable to have coverage in WP, we follow the most common usage in those sources. There is no evidence that "Private Manning" is being used more commonly than "Bradley Manning" in reliable sources, so we should not use it either. --B2C 17:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. We don't use honorifics/titles/ranks in article titles unless they are the overwhelming common name. Zarcadia (talk) 15:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• weak Support as better than the BLP/NPOV vio name Bradley though Chelsea would be even better and should be revisited in 29 days even if this RM is successful. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - this request is a non-starter! The only move that makes any sense is to Chelsea Manning. I am not bothered if it waits 30 days, or if it happens sooner, but using the rank doesn't fit any policy or guideline; in my opinion. As an aside; I see a push to have the middle name used as if it is the common form; looking at the source for the infobox signature shows Manning signing her name over the typed name: Chelsea E. Manning but the signature itself is Chelsea Manning. I had a similar concern during the Laura Jane Grace move where we were ahead of sources and chose a name that hadn't achieved its own wp:commonform. It seems worth thinking about anyway. :) John Cline (talk) 18:38, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I think we should wait 30 days with any new move requests as sugested by the admins closing the previous one. Space simian (talk) 06:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no adequate reason to ignore our naming conventions here. VQuakr (talk) 07:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Not even sure transgender is proper diagnosis let alone changing the title from the common name to something even more ambiguous. --DHeyward (talk) 08:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Obviously. This matter has been resolved. Now leave it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Let's wait 30 days and see where common usage begins to fall. NewAccount4Me (talk) 16:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Public Manning is not the way to go. Agathoclea (talk) 19:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment Given the fact that Wikipedia's early use of Chelsea was newsworthy and there's bound to be more attention on the move back, is it reasonable to give or link to a brief explanation about the move back at the top? I feared this would be the somewhat embarrassing result, and the irony is that if procedure was followed we'd probably have moved to Chelsea either by now or before the 30 day cooling off period. It's probably better that it be clarified it was largely moved back because the initial move was an abuse of procedure. StuartH (talk) 04:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Per WP:CRYSTAL though we dont know what the media is going to do, looking above here there are just as much sources that are using the name "Bradley" as opposed to Chelsea and this is just in the last few hours. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:55, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

you can use the oldmoves template, there's one at Ivory Coast I think. Note: the admin determination was no consensus to move. They did not move it back because of an abuse of procedure, they moved it back b/c discussion had no consensus to move and in these cases the original title remains.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:57, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I think we may be arguing about semantics here; disagreeing with exactly how StuartH phrased his statement. My belief, and perhaps StuartH's belief too, is thus: given there was likely "no consensus to move" yet performing the move anyways meant that "the initial move was an abuse of procedure."

• Comment: Having initiated the previous move request I'm not particularly keen on delving into this one much. I'll reserve formal judgment, at least for now, regarding this move request. On the one hand, I would note that "Private Manning" is not a commonly used term. "Bradley Manning" is oft-used, and "Chelsea Manning" is oft-used, but I don't really see "Private Manning" being used in reliable sources. On the other hand, I do think "Private" is a more neutral way to approach this than picking a given name (a decision clearly wrought with controversy). I could see it being acceptable as a temporary compromise before the move request in thirty or so days. Anyway, I'll leave it to the rest of you to work out a solution. Good luck.

PS: The discussion so far on this move request appears to be reasonable and civil, without personal attacks. I hope it will stay that way, as presenting arguments in a reasonable manner is almost certain to make others trust your opinions more. CaseyPenk (talk) 05:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify (one proposer to another), I don't see this as a temporary move. If it's a valid move---which I think it is---then I expect it will remain so after 30 days. Time won't change the fact that his most notable actions occurred while he was very clearly Bradley Manning and very clearly Private Manning, not Chelsea Manning. But who knows what lies ahead in this dramatic drama. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, this: "notable actions occurred while he was very clearly Bradley Manning" is irrelevant: What matters is the persons CURRENT COMMON NAME, not when they were most notable. Cam94509 (talk) 05:36, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on that policy. How about Shirley Temple and Cat Stevens? Neither now goes by those names. Anyway, has Wikipedia ever affirmatively decided to reject the recommendation of the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association (NLGJA) to not use one name to the exclusion of the other, but rather to use the old name when writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender?Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:52, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME states, "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." In other words, recent sources (which may refer either to Chelsea or to Bradley) are given higher priority but older sources (which refer to Bradley) are also to be considered.

If you have not already seen it, you may want to check out this essay (AKA opinion piece) on recentism to understand why some may oppose focusing exclusively on the current name. CaseyPenk (talk) 05:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Without examining the merits of such a move, there won't be any moves for the mandated 30-day period, so please just close this discussion as, as someone (in)famously wrote (repeatedly) in a related context, being "too premature". --Mareklug ^talk 05:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Umm... Incorrect. This move discussion is EXPLICITLY allowed by the RM closure. We are merely not allowed to start a move discussion for moving the page to Chelsea Manning. Cam94509 (talk) 05:37, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, while I'm not sure another RM is a good idea, the closing statement clearly allowed a RM of this sort I presume because such a proposal/compromise version was barely considered in the previous RM. Nil Einne (talk) 06:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Please know that Google is not a valid measure of popularity of terms. See WP:SET. Specifically, WP:SET#What a search test can do, and what it can't. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 06:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Everyone that is supporting this move with the "it's better than Bradley" rationale will most likely have their vote discarded by the closer.Two kinds of pork (talk) 17:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

First sentence

Is there consensus to start with the male or female name? The choice is basically:

• 1. Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier who ... [3]

or

• 2. Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987, and known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning) is a United States Army soldier who ..." [4]

Personally I prefer to see the lead match the title, but it works the other way too, so long as the lead includes the sentences about the name-change announcement. Someone moved the announcement to a footnote, but it needs to stay visible to explain the female name and pronoun. It would be good to get agreement so that the article stabilizes. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• IMO, the RM was as good as a coin-toss. It makes sense to give the first sentence to the losing faction as a consolation prize. Formerip (talk) 20:36, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning)" is the appropriate solution as it conveys that she now uses the name Chelsea and that Bradley is her former name, not her current name. Josh Gorand (talk) 20:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

It's an entirely inadequate solution. The title already misgenders her, and the first sentance won't correct that. As it is, the title denies Chelsea Manning's identity, and is an attack on her, and nothing in the rest of the article will really make up for that. 173.66.211.53 (talk) 20:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

for the sake of argument you have to concede the name change should remain the same to be part of this particular argument

• I prefer the second option. Many/most readers will have never heard of the change in gender identity. A note of the change with since August 2013 solves this. 2.102.186.231 (talk) 21:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• I prefer the second opinion, Bradley Edward Manning. Also how is using the name Bradley Manning an attack? That is Bradley's legal name, Bradley has not legally changed names yet. BeckiGreen (talk) 21:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• My 2¢ is to start with the "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning". A similar approach is taken on other articles that are not at the subject's "proper" name e.g. Cat Stevens, Republic of Ireland, --RA (✍) 21:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987, and since August 2013 prefers to be referred to as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning) is a United States Army soldier who ..." Manning will be filing documents using his legal name. It is Manning's preference to be called Chelsea but won't be filing anything as Chelsea. It currently is a preference that doesn't seem to have any more value than a nickname. The gender identity issue is separate and Manning could easily have said he is keeping his name and changing his gender. I'd even argue that the following is less contentious and accurate:

Bradley Edward "Chelsea Elizabeth" Manning (born December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier who ..." --DHeyward (talk) 22:14, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Should start with current name. Contrary to some assertions, there is no rule that a biography must start with the same name in the title. See for example Slim Pickens (which is referenced in WP:MOSBIO). Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Go with Option 1 (Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning)...), per [[RA and Sam Blacketer. -sche (talk) 22:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 is consistent with Wikipedia practices and policies. See Cat Stevens for example. Wikipedia:Article titles is only applicable to titles. WP:MOS and WP:BLP are the applicable guidelines for the body of the article, including the lead sentence. WP:MOS requires that we use female pronouns throughout, thus it would be most appropriate that we lead with the female name to match. Also WP:BLP states that articles on living people "require a high degree of sensitivity". Disregarding Manning's change of gender identity in the lead would not be in keeping with that policy, IMO. Kaldari (talk) 23:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Start with the male name. If people can accept the word "also" then put that in too: Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987, and also known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning) is...." The "also" makes the sentence more accurate while taking care of the "is"problem discussed below. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• (Opening sentence is the crowning glory of this repugnant głupota)

"Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987, and known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning) is …"

I hate to focus on such irrelevances as past and present tenses in the context of that thing called non-self-contradiction, but how can the article involve the pair of statements—within the same sentence and with a straight face—"known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning" and "Bradley is …"?

If the article acknowledges that she has been "known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning", how can the present tense statement "Bradley is …" make any sort of sense? After all, the phrase Bradley Manning is is an assertion that she is not known as Chelsea Manning, a fact that is in straight contradiction to "known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning"? With regard to the paired statements just mentioned, you can have Bradley manning was, or Chelsea Manning is, but you can't have Bradley Manning is any more than you can have Chelsea Manning was.

In a similar vain, if she has been "known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning", why is the article titled Bradley Manning?

Is it too much to ask for old-fashioned consistency in the opening sentence of an article's lede? I mean, this reflects on me as a Wikipedia editor, and I don't enjoy being associated with such farce, as much as some people here seem to revel in it. LudicrousTripe (talk) 22:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Can you say above whether you prefer 1 or 2? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:10, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi! The only acceptable version to me, and the only morally acceptable version, is to have the title as Chelsea Manning. As regards the first sentence, it should contain, in my view, a parenthetic mention that her legal name is Bradley Edward, so as to assist any readers less familiar with the name-changing. LudicrousTripe (talk) 22:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

It can make sense because it’s possible to be known by multiple names at one time

"it’s possible to be known by multiple names at one time"
For sure, but that is not relevant to the pair of statements we are concerned with. The statement is not "also known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning". LudicrousTripe (talk) 22:21, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the need for that "also", omitting it doesn’t necessarily imply a person has no other names

"omitting it doesn’t necessarily imply a person has no other names"
For sure, but we are dealing with the inconsistency of the pair of statements above, not the implications or otherwise of "known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning" taken in isolation. My simple complaint is the use of Bradley Edward in a sentence that asserts she is now known as Chelsea Manning. LudicrousTripe (talk) 22:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

For clarity's sake, I would add, using also would be normal, or at the very least least highly recommended, as other articles make clear. LudicrousTripe (talk) 22:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• The first version is considerably less worse. The second seems to make a point of using her old name - David Gerard (talk) 22:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• I don't know why you changed the first sentence again, it should reflect the most recent name as on most other blp (i.e. choice 1 is preferable). There are numerous blp where the title does not match the lead (e.g. Cat Stevens, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, were title is the most commonly used term and lede use subjects actual name). The way you wrote it really is offensive and appears to make a point. --Space simian (talk) 22:39, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• I've changed it back to the previous version (Chelsea, version 1 above) until consensus forms. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• 1 is the better option, much more accurate. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 23:09, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 (Chelsea) first. The title is one thing and I understand putting it at the most recognizable name, but in the body of the article I think we should honor her wishes and address her primarily as Chelsea. (My vote makes the tally 11-5 in favor of Chelsea if I count right.) Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 23:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Option 1. Use the name she is currently known as. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

• Option 1, per RA and Kaldari. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:08, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 - start with the current name per above...Modernist (talk) 11:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)#
• Option 1, as she is currently known as Chelsea. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 11:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Option 2, Chelsea is his subsequent name and Manning explicitly asked to be called Chelsea "starting today", i.e. August 22. In this case the name would be in chronological order and in harmony with the article's title. Brandmeister^talk 15:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Does that mean that you would start Bill Clinton "William Jefferson Blythe IV, later William Jefferson Clinton ..." and start Gerald Ford "Leslie Lynch King, Jr., later renamed Gerald Rudolph Ford ..."? Please advise. Sam Blacketer (talk) 19:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Besides, option 1 is also ordered chronologicaly. --Space simian (talk) 06:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
    • William Jefferson Blythe IV and Leslie Lynch King, Jr. are better known as Bill Clinton and Gerald Ford, but Manning has been (and currently is) better known as Bradley Manning, not Chelsea Manning. When the majority of reliable sources start to call Manning Chelsea, not Bradley, then the issue may be largely solved. Brandmeister^talk 13:24, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Option 2. Manning has not changed his legal name. Until such time as he does, Chelsea is a nickname. I would submit that hardly anyone knows Larry the Cable Guy's real name, yet his article begins "Daniel Lawrence Whitney..." albeit not in bold. In the case of Bill Clinton, his last name was legally changed to Clinton so it makes since to say "born William Jefferson Blythe IV". To say Manning was born Bradley Edward Manning falsely implies that is no longer his legal name. Talmage (talk) 00:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Question: Linking to this article from other articles

Before I write anything else, I wish to emphasise that I have not participated whatsoever in the above discussion and that I do not wish to cause any kind of impassioned discussion here. I ask in particular that those editors who vehemently insist that all references to 'Bradley Manning' be removed refrain from commenting, since the outcome of the move discussion makes it rather clear that this is not necessary. I would appreciate any carefully considered, neutral responses.

Naturally, there are numerous links to this article on other Wikipedia articles. My question is whether there is any kind of policy as to which link (Bradley Manning or Chelsea Manning) is used. I have seen phrases such as 'Bradley Manning (now known as Chelsea Manning)' and 'Chelsea Manning (formerly known as Bradley Manning)', which appear to be relatively understandable. Is one of these two to be preferred?

A problem is when one name is not included in the phrase (so there is a mention to simply 'Bradley Manning' or 'Chelsea Manning'). The above discussion appears to suggest that 'Bradley Manning' is the common name of the subject, and thus one might consider it unwise to put a link to 'Chelsea Manning' with no further explanation. For this reason, should any links to 'Chelsea Manning' be changed to 'Bradley Manning' exclusively or a combination of both names?

I have found an unusual example on the article Manning, which contains an alphabetical list of people with the surname Manning. Currently, there is a link to 'Chelsea Manning', with a note alongside saying 'born Bradley Manning, 1987'. Since 'Bradley Manning' could be considered to be the common name for the subject, I believe it could cause great confusion for anyone searching for Manning who is not aware of the change of name, since 'Bradley Manning' is apparently omitted from the list entirely unless one looks carefully in a place one would not expect to look. In these cases, should the name most common (apparently 'Bradley Manning') be listed instead, or could links to both names be included?

I apologise for the length of this message, but I hope any replies might help me and many other editors. 86.137.46.247 (talk) 21:26, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Both links will function precisely the same. For the list example, you could say see the other one, or some other such solution that helps the reader - David Gerard (talk) 21:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

The link that states Chelsea Manning (born Bradley Manning, 1987), U.S. Army intelligence analyst, convicted of leaking classified materials to WikiLeaks, should be changed to Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987, and known since August 2013 as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning. Since the Bradley Manning article is now named Bradley Manning, and also because Manning is still legally Bradley Manning. Manning has not had a legal name change yet. BeckiGreen (talk) 21:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

86.137.46.247, MOS:BIO says, "If a person is named in an article in which they are not the subject, they should be referred to by the name they were using at the time of the mention rather than a name they may have used before or after the mention." This should tell you what to do if the link is in another bio article, but it also provides more general advice for non-bio articles. As for the "Manning" article, since Chelsea's claim to notability to be included on the list in the first place was for things she did when her name was "Bradley", the MOS:BIO advice would seem to suggest that she be listed there as "Bradley". But there is no reason there cannot also be a "now known as" parenthetical afterward. 99.192.66.56 (talk) 22:54, 31 August 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)

BeckiGreen, you appear to be under the misconception that there has to be something called a "legal name change." There does not. 46 of 50 U.S. states recognize the right to make a common-law name change with no formal legal action required. Those states include the states Manning has resided or will reside in. See our handy legal name article for details. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Common law name changes are not accepted for identity in federal courts (the main reason Manning is notable). Nor would the Army being a government entity. Assuming a name under common law is simply not illegal. Manning can be called anything s/he likes except in court, prison or the army. If there's a place for a Manning article outside of the Army, prison or court, any name desired could be used. Otherwise, those three entities consider him to be male, named Bradley Manning exactly as it is stated in his enlistment papers, indictments, etc. "Today my new name is Chelsea" is not illegal but not recognized. If, for example, your legal name is "Robert" and you go by "Bobby" or "Bubba", it is not illegal to do so. However, the government is under no obligation to honor that until/unless it is registered. If you were given a name at birth and it was registered with the government, that's your name for future interactions with the government including government service, courts, prison, etc. Common law makes registering a new name very easy and limits what the government can deny but it is a far cry from "Today my name is Chelsea." One of the requirements is that the name change can't be for fraud. The prosecutor will not simply ignore a gender/name change and have Manning sent to a female prison. They will argue it is a fraud to get out of Leavenworth which would necessitate a court decision. --DHeyward (talk) 05:54, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

We don't name people exclusively based on what name their government calls them. The rest of your argument is similarly non-responsive. Wikipedia is not required to base its article names on what a prosecutor wants.

Also, the main reason Manning is notable is for the contents of the documents he leaked, not the fact that he was convicted for leaking the documents. If he had leaked meaningless documents revealing nothing of significance, nobody would have ever heard of him. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:12, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I was under the impression that you immediately forfeit your civilian rights upon joining the military? If certain laws apply differently to him, then why are we still pretending that he is a civilian? If you want to argue Wikipedia policy, that's fine; what I don't get is the constant referrals to how "46 of 50 U.S. states" do things. --benlisquare_T•C•E 03:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your replies (in particular, the reference to MOS:BIO). 86.137.46.247 (talk) 20:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America

Chelsea Manning Is Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America. Will She Be Treated Humanely? Slate.com. By Amanda Hess | Posted Thursday, Aug. 22, 2013.

I think she may be one of the most famous trans women in the world as well. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

At the present time you'd have a hard job demonstrating she isn't the highest profile trans* person in the world. How this plays out long term we can't yet know, but it wouldn't surprise me if she remains in the top 10 for a long while. Thryduulf (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Which one article provides more excuses to push a political agenda to the foreground rather than reflect what the person is best known for? User:Carolmooredc 12:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your question. A person can be notable for many things and the trans issues simply are making everyone take pause while some on the religious right go apoplectic because OMG someone is changing their gender identity. Luckily the rest of the world is moving away from those tired views and Wikipedia can simply focus on what reliable sources bring forward. i think she is a major trans celebrity and newsrooms will soon be educating the world on more what it weans to transition and the legal hurdles one faces. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay a "major trans celebrity"? Come on now enough of the personal opinions already. Also what you are saying is WP:CRYSTAL anyways, Manning was more notable as Bradley this is proven by the fact that books have been written about him, as well as the majority of sources that followed the trial. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the snide remarks and these aren't just my opinions these are how the rest of the world is moving progressively forward. Gay marriage means that Chelsea can marry the man or woman she chooses, this was simply not true even a few years ago. Chelsea is a transwoman and of course a celebrity, the article points out she is the most famous transgender inmate. Your disagreement is with Slate.com. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Again they are more of your personal opinions, come to think of it what does this have to do with improving the article if anything? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Your lack of apology is noted. Again facts are not the same as my opinions although my opinions are rooted in factual evidence. As for the article I think we should reflect that when Chelsea came out s a transwoman she became a highly visible member of the trans community and the most famous transgender inmate in the U.S. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Bradley Chelsea Manning is not the most famous transgender inmate in the U.S because ONE magazine article states that. And it wouldn't improve the article anyway. BeckiGreen (talk) 20:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I follow what the sources state and i have little doubt that more will write on her influence in shaping mainstream US ideas on what transgenderism is. I do disagree, of course, that a good article would discuss this. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

(sorry about the earlier ec) Some are already writing about her, Michael Silverman, Executive Director of the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund said this; "...Manning may not be the best figure to be the one to help educate the public on trans issues."[5]. Kristin Beck, a former Navy Seal who came out as transgender in June, issued a blistering statement against Manning; [6]Susan Estrich was also highly critical of Manning;[7]. Brynn Tannehill, Director of Advocacy at SPART*A said; “If you’re wondering if she’s being embraced as a hero in the military trans community, she is absolutely not.”[8]. Time will tell if she was a positive or negative influence.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Another one detailing the connection:

• Chelsea Manning's Gender Transition Could Set Military Precedent

Related:

• ACLU: Denying Chelsea Manning Hormone Therapy May Violate Constitutional Rights

Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:02, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

• Mannings requests puts spotlight on being transgender in America How Will the Military Handle Bradley Manning's Request to Be 'Chelsea'? (PBS) . Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

In hindsight, I think this will fade. Manning blamed gender identity disorder for crimes committed including assaulting a female superior, leaking documents and being emotionally unstable. Making Manning a transgender celebrity brings attention to it, but the end result will be if the Army does recognize it and treat it, they will tie the diagnosis to the experience they had with Manning. Will all military personnel diagnosed with GID/GD lose their security clearance because of the emotional liability and turmoil that Manning exhibited? The law of unintended consequences is very much in play. Manning may bring transgender issues to front page but the end result may not serve the LGBT community very well. The collision of progressive LGBT causes and progressive causes supporting the leaking of the classified documents might turn into a train wreck. --DHeyward (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. BTW, where did manning blame transgenderism for anything? I think I missed that. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:PEACOCK I do not think this is helpful. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. It's no, more or less, true or relevant than saying Manning is the world's most famous transgender female named Chelsea. It's an Ignoratio elenchi; much more about advocacy than improving this article. Unfortunately, I've seen it before, too often. And it does affect credibility for the side advocating—in my opinion (practically meaningless). :) John Cline (talk) 17:30, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

If you'll read the peacock guide it states "without attribution" which is not applicable in this case. The source calls her that. And nothing has been entered into the article anyway. Sportfan5000 (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Crime category

I was going to add some categories, but am concerned that I'm not sufficiently informed. Based on the conviction under the Espionage Act, would any of the "People convicted of spying" categories be appropriate? Right now, the categories don't reflect what the conviction was for. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

How is that category defined? IMO a "spy" is operating for specfic entities. Manning didnt spy as much as release classified information without authorization.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I'm not sure of - not familiar enough with the Espionage Act and how WP handles other people convicted under it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:42, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Add a new category for "people convicted of espionage". I've no clue how to do that however.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:12, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Creating a new category isn't as easy as all that, and it would probably be deleted for redundancy with the spying category. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

He is already in a "people convicted under the espionage act", which is sufficient in my mind.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:18, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

She's in a category for persons charged under the espionage act. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Good point. Ok, we now have a convicted category. The categories in the US are for "people convicted of spying against the united states" - in this case, he was convicted of espionage, but was acquitted of aiding the enemy. So i'm not sure if the spying cats are appropriate, at least as worded.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:22, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

We have spying cats? ;) 09:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smowton (talk • contribs)

Is Wikipedia's mission to protect users from the knowledge that trans people exist?

Title is wrong.

Should read 'Chelsea Manning'. Criffer (talk) 09:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Please see #Requested move at the top of this article. This has been debated extensively, and the consensus is that it should be Bradley, not Chelsea. — Richard BB 09:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

No, the move was noted as "no consensus" - please don't misstate this - David Gerard (talk) 09:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, right. Wasn't intentional! — Richard BB 10:56, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of consensus, title is wrong.2001:420:40FF:FFE0:F911:C3F8:4284:EA63 (talk) 10:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's debatable. — Richard BB 11:13, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

"I am Chelsea Manning" - Chelsea Manning. How is that debatable? 2001:420:40FF:FFE0:F911:C3F8:4284:EA63 (talk) 11:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Because, as shown in the vast debates above (and here), there are a lot of different interpretations of policy. She may call herself Chelsea, but the question is how Wikipedia should refer to her. Unfortunately, however, there is a 30-day wait until the next debate about this may begin. — Richard BB 11:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

That would be too easy don't you know? The editors that flooded this talk page have brought massively good arguments such as how wikipedia users would get ultra confused about the move. Apparently wikipedia's mission is to protect users from the knowledge that trans people exist. Or how about the rationalizations about how MOS:IDENTITY shouldn't apply to page titles! woo!. Then come the SEO experts, treating Chelsea Manning as just another visibility optimization challenge. Soon enough they will succeed in changing MOS:IDENTITY Vexorian (talk) 11:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The idea that Wikipedia is trying to protect users from the knowledge that trans people exist is absurd. If that were the case, the article wouldn't even mention the fact that she is trans. — Richard BB 11:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The title is inconsequential to Manning's name. If Manning were better known as The Grand Poobah, then that is what the title would be. Or that's my interpretation on how things went down. Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Title is inconsequential to Manning's gender and current identity as well. It's just the name the person is most known as, much as is the case with Cat Stevens (aka Yusef Islam, the name he has identified with since 1979!). I'm not sure why a person being sent to prison for 35 years is being held up as the beacon for transgenderism; this individual is surrounded by controversy and it's no wonder that this has embroiled such bitter debate. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 01:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

If people think Manning is a traitor/criminal they should put that to one side when contributing to wikipedia articles on her, otherwise its wikipedia that gets damaged, and the same for those who think she is a heroine, otherwise it becomes very difficult to fulfill our neutrality policy. We most of us having feelings on Manning's wikileaks endeavors, its the putting them to one side that is so critical. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

This also should go for people who have personal feelings related to gender identity. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The undisputed fact is that Manning is a convicted felon. Manning is not a traitor, as that normally requires a conviction for treason, which has not happened. Both of these facts are critical to editing the article, as editors must always focus on the truth as documented by verifiable, reliable sources. That's what we do, and the crimes, trial, and conviction are what makes Manning notable. Anything else, including gender identity or the editor's opinion that Manning is a whistleblower/traitor, are secondary, incidental factors. Do we address them? Sure, making sure that we appropriately source the information in accordance with BLP. As things change we put them in the article, but until the vast majority of the published sources are about something besides the leaked material, that's where the weight of the article must be. As SqueakBox said, we have to put aside our own feelings in order to use the facts as reported by the sources. We cannot let the article become a soapbox for transgender issues, or for that matter, anything other than the facts. The project is not well-served by anything less. GregJackP Boomer! 02:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

While what you are saying is correct, Knowledgekid, I had been responding to Floydian. At least the naming/pronouning dispute is about transgender issues, it isnt about espionage issues. In real life I have very mixed feelings about transgender people but wikipedia is not the place for them and I believe as wikipedia editors interested in neutrality and in writing a great encyclopedia that we should support the view that Manning is a woman called Chelsea regardless of our personal beliefs on transgender. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 02:06, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hatting this section

A discussion about whether it's appropriate or helpful to hat/unhat this section is here: User_talk:Knowledgekid87#Unexplained_revert.2Fre-hatting_of_explained_unhatting. --B2C 19:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Right now per policy the next move discussion to change this title will happen in October, saying that the title is wrong until you are blue in the face and why you feel you are right or wrong is not going to help anything. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

So ignore the folks saying the title is wrong instead of edit warring over a hat. NE Ent 19:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

If the only comment in this section was the first JDLI one, that would justify hatting the section. But by the time it was hatted it already included the substantive exchange between Vexorian (talk · contribs) and Richard BB (talk · contribs). The hatting, and re-hatting, was unjustified. At least no reasonable justification was provided. The initial JDLI claim applied only to the first comment, not the rest of it.

Knowledgekid seems to think any discussion about the title is now off limits. That's not true. --B2C 20:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Im not saying anything of the sort, it is known by now that some editors here do not approve of the current title I just don't see any reason why the debate about it needs to continue here and what purpose it is all for. What results do you expect out of it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:22, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Is this all really necessary??

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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If a person wants to be treated the female, adopts a female name, dresses like a woman and more importantly, psychologically and emotionally sees herself as a woman, so she IS A WOMAN and deserves to be treated like one!

Why create a huge page just to discuss something HERSELF, Chelsea Manning, has made so clear? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.46.249.171 (talk) 11:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

As has been stated above, it all comes down to how we should represent her. Wikipedia has various guidelines regarding how articles are named, and so it doesn't always come down to how she wants to be seen. Besides, the point is moot as this debate cannot happen again for another 30 days. — Richard BB 11:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, because we decide how to treat people. If we want to be racist, we sure should make wikipedia racist too! Woah, we are so great people! Vexorian (talk)

This has nothing to do with treatment, it's to do with how we follow our existing guidelines. Even though I'm in favour of her being called Chelsea, many people made the valid point that it was moved without consensus. — Richard BB 13:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• Comment A quote I once heard that I believe is attributed to Abraham Lincoln is, "If you call a dogs tail a leg, how many legs does it have? Still only 4. Just because you call it a leg, doesn't make it so."JOJ ^Hutton<
• Comment 1. Attributed by whom? Are you spreading myths about Lincoln? 2. I'm hoping you mean that simply saying a trans woman is a man, doesn't make them a man. Otherwise it sounds like you're comparing trans people to dogs and that might be seen as hateful or derogatory to some."Elaqueate (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not a battleground. Take the Lincoln quote for what is worth and don't create drama where none exists. JOJ ^Hutton 00:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

lead revision

As Manning is most notable for the espionage she committed, the emphasis on the lead should be that; while her self identification as female is important, it should only be briefly mentioned in the lead. NE Ent 13:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

While we appreciate the bold action, please note that there is a long, thorough debate on how to deal with this matter occurring on this talkpage. Please refrain from taking unilateral action when consensus is being found. The lede is structured as it is to make it easier for readers to understand the different names and pronouns being used, as well. It's a readability and consensus issue. NewAccount4Me (talk) 15:38, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The issue is, per WP:LEAD, The lead should define the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight. If specific explanation of pronouns is required, that is more appropriately done via hatnote. NE Ent 15:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I see it as a readability issue in general, but have no problems with a consensus saying otherwise. I do think we need a consensus before the change is made or we are going to have a 40,000 word rehashed argument in this section within the next 2-3 hours. NewAccount4Me (talk) 16:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It's a common sense and non-advocacy issue. Manning is primarily known for the espionage conviction, the transgender issue is secondary and should not be given that much prominence in the lead. Tarc (talk) 15:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree that transgender shouldn't be mentioned in the first sentence as a prime descriptor of Mannning. It's not what they got known for; which is the wikileak-case of course. Iselilja (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The transgender issue should be mentioned in the first sentence. Manning is now likely the most notable transgender person in the world and there is no evidence that now she is solely notable for the espionage conviction, unless of course ppl can find reliable sources to back up their opinions. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Had she not been convicted of 20 felonies, no one would have cared about the transgender issues. GregJackP Boomer! 16:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of the past, it seems safe to say people (readers and editors) care about the transgender issues now. They are notable and have been discussed prominently in media.Elaqueate (talk) 16:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

GregJackP, the same could be said for Gary Glitter and his pedophile convictions but the reality is that because of the espionage issue Chelsea IS a highly notable transgender person, the proof of which is that we are here discussing her wikipedia article. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree that she is a highly notable transgender. What I am saying is that the criminal acts are more significant. I don't have a problem with transgender being in the lead, but it should be explanitory, as McPhail notes below. The lead should summarize the article, and the majority of the article is about the crimes, the prosecution, and conviction. The transgender issue should not predominate in the lead. GregJackP Boomer! 17:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

My rationale for adding the word "transgender" in the first sentence was that this makes it immediately clear why both female and male names are supplied for Manning. The current wording leaves this a mystery. McPhail (talk) 17:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Politically I'd support omitting the transgender bit from the lead - the difference between the birth name and the current name should be something the mythical "average reader" should be able to figure out (and if they can't, they can always read on - it's the lead of an encyclopaedia article, not a stand-alone brief). In practical terms, although the transgender issue has attracted a lot of attention recently, it's unlikely to continue to do so unless the HRT fight heats up (and then the story still is likely to be US military policy, not the fact that Manning is transgender. I'd link the phrase "self-identified as female" to trans woman and leave it at that. Guettarda (talk) 17:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

If it's agreed upon that her coming out should be mentioned in the lead by inclusion of one sentence, then that sentence could use a little expansion, it's kind of vague. What about saying: After being sentenced, Manning released a statement announcing she is a female and requested that she be referred to as Chelsea, - or something along those lines. On another note, I found this at CNN - Famous transgender and transsexual people-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• Mostly  Done (shunned the passive voice). NE Ent 18:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• I can't see the benefit of the change to the lead, and it isn't well-written.

  The lead said: "Manning was raised as a boy, but in a statement issued the day after sentencing identified herself as female and said she had felt female since childhood. She introduced herself as Chelsea and expressed a desire to undergo hormone replacement therapy."

  That was changed to: "After sentencing, Manning stated she is a female and requested that she be referred to as Chelsea."

  When I reverted the change, I was reverted with the edit summary: "Nah, you don't just get to do that without participating in current discussion ..." So here I am. In what way is the change an improvement? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:18, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• Per WP:LEAD, The lead should define the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight. The primary emphasis should be on the espionage; the transgender aspect, while important, should only be mentioned in the lead and expounded further later in the article. NE Ent 23:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• The primary topic of the lead is indeed the leaks and charges, but the first paragraph is not the totality of the lead. We need to explain upfront why and when she became Chelsea, and the previous version was clearer. I don't mind tightening it (in fact, I'd have done that myself but assumed I'd be reverted), but I don't think there's a need to change it completely. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the older wording sounds better: "Manning was raised as a boy, [... etc ...] expressed a desire to undergo hormone replacement therapy." The new wording, "Manning stated she is a female", switches between the past and the present tense in the space of three words describing an event (the making of a statement) that occurred in the past; that doesn't seem like good style. If we're trying to make the lead more concise/brief, I'd suggest something like "After sentencing, Manning introduced herself as Chelsea and stated that she was female." or "...stated that she was a woman." or (incorporating a link to Gender identity disorder) "...stated that she had felt female since childhood." -sche (talk) 23:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

If we want it to be a shorter single sentence, I'd prefer something like: "Manning was raised as a boy, but in a statement issued the day after sentencing said she had felt female since childhood, asked to be known as Chelsea, and expressed a desire to undergo hormone replacement therapy." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I think sche's "After sentencing, Manning introduced herself as Chelsea and stated she was a woman" is good. That it was the day after and the therapy stuff is notable for inclusion but are details which don't need to be in the lead sentence. NE Ent 00:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not keen on "stated," because it's one of those over-used words, and the way it's written suggests that this was sudden, so I think it's important to add that she has felt that way since childhood. The thing is, if we shorten this too much, someone else will come along and lengthen it. Someone else lengthened what was there, which is why several of you now want to shorten it. To get stability we have to include the issues we can anticipate lots of people will want to see included, but do it as succinctly as possible. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:31, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we could tighten up the following three paragraphs in the lead into two and make the fourth lead paragraph address the transgender content? NE Ent 00:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't be keen on that, because the rest of the lead deals with the key issues; it makes no sense to tighten the key issues to include the most recent. In addition, the transgender announcement needs to be at the top to explain Chelsea. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:06, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The first words, "Chelsea born Bradley," if it doesn't fully connect all the dots, certainly provides pretty powerful hint to readers. Explaining the context in which she became notable -- conviction for espionage -- should be the thrust of the first paragraph. The fact that she is transgender isn't what makes her notable -- I'm sure we don't have articles on all 700,000 transgender folks in the US. NE Ent 02:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

References

The first two sentences explain the notability. I've changed the third to: "In a statement issued the day after sentencing, Manning said she had felt female since childhood, asked to be known as Chelsea, and expressed a desire to undergo hormone replacement therapy." Is that okay with you? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Looks good to me. -sche (talk) 02:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No, it's where we started. NE Ent 02:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, we could compact it slightly to "The day after sentencing, Manning said she had felt female since childhood, asked to be known as Chelsea, and expressed a desire to undergo hormone replacement therapy." (Possibly with a better verb than "said".) That would make it the shortest sentence in the first paragraph, and the second-shortest sentence in the first two paragraphs. -sche (talk) 02:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

(ec) It isn't where you started. You started with: "Manning was raised as a boy, but in a statement issued the day after sentencing identified herself as female and said she had felt female since childhood. She introduced herself as Chelsea, asked that feminine pronouns be used, and stated she would undergo hormone replacement therapy." [9] So it is now quite a bit shorter and is one sentence. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Seeking input on policy

Hi everyone, a preparatory discussion regarding article title policy is taking place at Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Preparation for another discussion: Article titles for transgender people. This is among the policies, if not the policy, that most affects what we should call this article. We are currently laying out the terms of the debate (which points we should discuss) before embarking on the actual discussion. Given that many people who have posted on this page are passionate about this topic, and given that we have a somewhat limited set of contributors so far, it would be great to get some additional voices in the mix. Whether you think the policy should be changed or should stay as is, you are welcome to contribute.

I ask that you please do not respond to this post but rather post on that page with your thoughts. Thank you. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I Violate a Stupid Policy to prevent a violation of a human right

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It is a violation of a human right to strip Chelsea's requests and needs and rights from her regardless if she is in prison or not and forced against her right in her true gender identity. What is this ? the 20th century ? How much progress and what have people learned. Chelsea is in an awkward situation and help and treatment is slim, could not people have the respect and decency to respect her requests. She has exposed the non-transparency and dirty workings of governments on this planet, and this is the thanks you can give her, putting the cherry on the top as gender discrimination ? Seriously people, please feel, understand and think, and stop running on automatic like policy parrots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanainternational (talk • contribs) 19:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia that makes changes in a calm, deliberate manner, based on standards such as notability, consensus, and utilizing reliable sources. Wikipedia is not a social organization with a mission to right the wrongs of society. You don't just get to skip the process and where the process has been properly followed, the article was changed in as many places as possible in order to reflect her requests. The other issues, such as whether gender identity issues are given proper consideration by wider society or whether or not she did a noble thing with the revealing of certain governmental data are not germane to this discussion. In addition, this is not a forum for general complaints, so if you have a complaint with a particular person, please take it up with them directly. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 19:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I highly doubt that anything posted on Wikipedia would ever violate someone's "human rights", loosely defined. Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The idea that the article being named "Bradley Manning" is somehow a violation of someone's human rights is one of the most laughable things I've seen in this debate. — Richard BB 20:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

"Two Kinds of Pork" and "Richard BB", may I draw your attention to Wikipedia's article on the right to sexuality, including "legal recognition of preferred gender of transgender persons", occuring in a number of international human rights institutions, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. So whilst the issue may still be up for debate, I would advise you to forestall your laughter for a moment - it seems the original poster may have made a good and valuable point. Horatio Snickers (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Who are you to deny me a good belly rumble? But seriously, I fail to see how something posted on a website could deny anyone their "rights". Especially since we just parrot previously published material.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:00, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

While I am very likely to vote in favor of a move to Chelsea Manning in 30 days when it will inevitably come up again, legal recognition and a title of a Wikipedia page are very different things. We have policies to strive to be accommodating when possible, but from a legal standpoint, Wikipedia could title the page Chelsea Manning, Bradley Manning, Cheldly Manning, Peyton Manning, Chelsea Clinton, or Lars, Grand Plenipotentiary of the Oatmeal Gnomes.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 23:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Granai video

There's an interesting discrepancy between the sources regarding when Manning passed the video of the May 2009 Granai airstrike in Afghanistan (also called the Garani airstrike) to WikiLeaks. This was the video that was never published, because apparently Daniel Domscheit-Berg took it with him when he left WikiLeaks, and said he had destroyed it. Manning indicated during the Lamo chat on 22 May 2010 that she had passed this video to WikiLeaks, though she gave no date ("bradass87" is Manning; "he" is Assange):

(2:15:57 PM) bradass87: they also caught wind that he had a video… of the Gharani airstrike in afghanistan, which he has, but hasn’t decrypted yet… [10]

In January 2013 Manning wrote a statement for the court, listing what she had passed to WikiLeaks and when. On p. 33 she says that she gave them the Granai video in late March 2010.

However, WikiLeaks tweeted on 8 January 2010 that it had obtained "encrypted videos of US bomb strikes on civilians," and linked to a story about the Granai airstrike. See Twitter, 8 January 2010: "Have encrypted videos of US bomb strikes on civilians http://bit.ly/wlafghan2 we need super computer time http://ljsf.org/". (The first link is on WP's blacklist, hence the nowiki. It leads to Noah Shachtman, "Afghan Airstrike Video Goes Down the Memory Hole", Wired, 23 June 2009.)

There's some discussion by Alexa O'Brien of the legal arguments here that might explain the discrepancy, but it's not clear to me what she's saying. If anyone here is familiar with the sequence of events, can you shed light on this? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Whatever anyone says about Manning, that is one helluva handle name he chose. lol.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The truth can't be impossible

"Also please avoid phrases that seem logically impossible or distracting (e.g. use She became a parent for the first time, not She fathered her first child.)"

Oceania is at war with East Asia, Oceania has always been at war with East Asia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winston S Smith (talk • contribs) 23:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The Snoop Dogg article currently contains the sentence "As a teenager, Snoop Dogg frequently ran into trouble with the law." even though no one exactly named "Snoop Dogg" existed at the time. If someone says the equivalent of, "Chelsea Manning (raised as a boy named Bradley) is good at tennis. She started when she was ten.", readers will understand everything they need to know from the context. It is not impossible to explain complex truths or histories.Elaqueate (talk) 00:13, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

A name differs from pronouns though. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 01:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

There are women named Bradley... Too bad Chelsea did not realize that. It would have saved immense amount of overhead. --Mareklug ^talk 04:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Wrong policy

Hello,

Not really an active wikipedia editor, but I really feel that referring to him as Chelsea Manning and using the 'she' pronoun damages the integrity of wikipedia. While he identifies as a female, I think that by wikipedia identifying him as his chosen gender rather than his actual gender it makes them appear as if they are more interested in supporting transgender politics then giving fair and impartial presentation of the news. I believe the policy on this is wrong, and I suggest a change.

Regards, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.93.108 (talk) 02:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I don't think you're the only person who feels this way; this issue has been heavily discussed over the past few days, and is a contentious issue. There has been discussion at the policy/guideline talk pages Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#MOS:Identity and Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Gender over this problem that have recently concluded. --benlisquare_T•C•E 04:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)