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Having Extra crew members listed in film articles

I've had a discussion with users on the talk page for Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster, but I feel like we should discuss it here as we've reached a stand-still and need to figure out where we should stand with this. there was a brief dicussion on this topic in 2017, but I feel we should address it again. Should we or should we not include a further section for crew in film articles? If so, when should they be included and to what extent? If not, why not (as we have a cast section?). Personally, I feel like crew sections would go against WP:TRIVIA which states "Avoid creating lists of miscellaneous information." and "Research may be necessary to give each fact some context". A list of excessive crew members without context of what they have done in the production (opposed to a cast section, which is far more obvious to a general audience), does not help the average reader. Per WP:FILMPRODUCTION, which states, " Try to maintain a production standpoint, referring to public announcements only when these were particularly noteworthy or revealing about the production process." I feel adding a list of crew members ranging from assistants to a director or special effects lighting are trivial unless you can provide context on how the individuals work contributed specifically to the production and how these individuals contributed. (i.e: even if we can't gather much into what a specific producer on a film did, it warrants an inclusion in the infobox as it's one of the most primarily contributors to the production of the film while a "special effects assistant director" is not, unless you can provide context on how it noteworthy. I'm not against going into detail on special effects artists on heavy special effects laden films (Godzilla films, Marvel movies, etc.) but I feel like that information can be provided without going into specifics in the prose which actually helps readers understand why you should know why an Eiji Tsuburaya is an important figure for a Godzilla production. I look forward to anyone else's thoughts on this. Thanks! Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

It's trivia unless there's relevant information on their work on the film. —El Millo (talk) 06:12, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Consensus has already been established, back in 2018 on this very talk page, in favor of crew lists. It seems odd to undo a consensus just 'cause one doesn't like it. Value and context has already been established at the Ghidorah talk page by @Erik: (who was involved in that 2018 consensus I just linked) and myself, but Andrzejbanas seems to ignore it. Articles like Edge of Tomorrow, Interstellar, (where I got the idea from) and Panic Room have added crew lists and have passed GA nominations with the crews retained. So clearly value has been acknowledged warranting their inclusion. Armegon (talk) 06:27, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:TRIVIA does not apply here at all. I do not support banning crew lists completely from film articles. There is no policy or guideline to prohibit crew lists, and the value of a crew list will depend on the film. So this should be discussed on a case-by-case basis, like Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster should be evaluated on its own merits. There will always be some degree of so-called irrelevance with some articles. For example, with Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, nobody actually cares who the editor and cinematographer for that film were, or who were the actors in the film were beyond the top four or five actors. (No, not even "a general audience" cares about them.) That could all be considered "trivia" under your particular interpretation.

Like I've said elsewhere, it is reasonable to list more crew members in the article body than who we list in the infobox, just like we list more cast members in the "Cast" section than we list in the infobox's "Starring" field. It is relatively new territory on where to draw the line for listing crew members. There are certain crew positions that win awards that aren't in the infobox, for example. Or certain positions for specific kinds of films, like choreographers for dance films. I think we can use WP:FILMCAST like WP:FILMCREW in looking for reasonable rules of thumb on where to cut off a list.

So the question is, are you looking for a specific resolution on Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster, or are you looking to get crew lists completely banned from all film articles? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:43, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't know that I have a strong position on this one way or another...to me, just including a 'random' list of crew associated with a film does seem a bit WP:INDISCRIMINATE, but I don't know that I feel strongly enough about that for it to constitute opposition. Perhaps one thing we could look to is whether the crewmembers have bluelinks or otherwise received significant coverage from sources for their work on the film in question? DonIago (talk) 13:55, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:INDISCRIMINATE doesn’t apply here either because WP:PERSONNEL supports adding the same “indiscriminate” crew list for albums. So why not for films as well? But like I said above, a consensus has already been established in 2018 in favor of crew lists. It doesn’t make sense to have another consensus every time someone doesn’t like this/that, despite an established consensus. Armegon (talk) 15:26, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for responding.

• @Erik:, I'm curious why WP:TRIVIA doesn't respond here. I'm curious what your proposal for WP:FILMCREW would be for FILMCAST, because this seems like a logical path.
• @Armegon:, as discussed previously at discussion on Godzilla film, WP:PERSONNEL is for WikiProjects:Albums and I don't think that really applies here. As for the 2018 article, I wasn't aware of it when it happened, that's why I bring it up again, nothing was added to the MOS:FILM to make it a regular part of the documentation and it the conversation seem to involve 2 to 4 folks. I'm looking for broader discussion here in 2022 to establish a larger consensus.

What @Doniago: states kind of echos my feelings on this. Per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, lists must "provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." In short, you have to state why it is important. These issues did not seem to be brought up with the inclusion with other special effects crews. And I think this information is better set for prose. Of course, I feel like there should be exceptions (if there is a special effects team that specifically worked together in compacities like a music band would, knowing which members contribtued on certain projects could be useful. I'm thinking of groups like The Chiodo Brothers and such. As for someone asking me if I want removal or to keep it, i'm not 100% against it, but I think it requires context and without it, I think sporadically adidng it to articles make it fail WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:48, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:TRIVIA is about trivia sections or sections that list miscellaneous information. Crew names aren't trivia or miscellaneous. I think it's fine to talk about whether or not a crew list is indiscriminate per policy, but WP:TRIVIA is not the relevant guideline to apply here.

I think there are a couple of items to address. First, MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says, "When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below)." In the film infobox's "Starring" field, we only list the topmost actors of a fuller list of actors' names in the "Cast" section. I think it would be unrealistic for us to remove the "Cast" section if it had the same or similar number of actors as the "Starring" field. For crew members, we've traditionally not listed them in the article body, perhaps because the film infobox has seemed to cover the major crew members. But it is not all of them, and I've seen many requests to add parameters to the film infobox over the years. I think the community in general is reluctant to add a new parameter because it very likely means that some editors will go around populating it for every single film. So if we added art director or production designer parameters, these would be populated indiscriminately. And we probably indiscriminately name a lot of crew members in the infobox regardless of the film. Maybe you'll argue that the same thing could happen to crew lists, but I think if crew lists were used here and there, they would fluctuate just like cast lists do. We don't have editors going around putting dozens of actors under "Cast" sections everywhere.

On the second point, content being indiscriminate is going to be subjective. With cast lists, they are largely a staple of film articles, and we know there's a point when too many names are listed, and that varies from film to film. Furthermore, editors could argue from their own perspective why an actor should be added or deleted, and I think WP:FILMCAST helps deal with that, to reference something outside ourselves. For crew lists, for example, Panic Room was mentioned, and I referenced a book about David Fincher where the main crew for Panic Room was listed on a page. That seemed like a good rule of thumb to follow; I didn't crib names from IMDb or watching the movie. If a secondary source found the set of names worth listing, then I don't think there's a strong case to call it indiscriminate.

Can follow up with other thoughts later. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:58, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I wrote too much already, but I also wanted to say that I don't think we need an actual WP:FILMCREW guideline at this point. Crew lists are hardly prevalent and don't really have to be standardized. I think it's okay for some articles to be a little differently structured. I'm wary about adding rules about what editors can or can't do. A lot of rules can be useful, but I think there can be some flexibility. There are some things I experiment with doing differently. One example I know of, a Featured Article like Mulholland Drive (film) was done by an editor outside this community, and with sections like "Characters" and "Style", that outsider approach shows. And I think that's good too. Crew lists aren't inherently detrimental, and the extent of their value may vary from article to article, and I'm okay with other editors trying out approaches to share and structure content of different kinds. Who knows, maybe articles for films that win awards for their cinematography would benefit from small tables of related technical details in a "Cinematography" subsection. Just because something hasn't really existed before does not mean it should never exist going forward. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 21:34, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Exactly! That's what I did with the Godzilla articles. I followed a rule of thumb by using and citing a secondary source. Since they are effects driven films, I felt it was worth noting the crew responsible for bringing such large scale films to life. Also considering that filmmaking is a large team effort. Films are not brought to life by the filmmakers in the infobox alone. Armegon (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

My key factor is why is it actually useful? Which has not been stated in any of our conversations. Most of the people are either a) mentioned already in the article or b) fail WP:INDISCRIMINATE. We aren't really here to make our own conclusions, as you'll have to explain why either you don't think the rules don't apply here with some detail as it's not just up to us whether we like it or not. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

It's useful to list the names of the main contributors to films, particularly because secondary sources name them as well. Reviews will name the main crew members including the positions in the infobox and beyond. Books and chapters about the films will list the crew more completely than the Wikipedia article's film infobox will. Even if seeing the production designer listed is not useful to you, it could be useful to others, as evidenced by their appearance in secondary sources. These same sources aren't going to list the "bottom" 99% of a comprehensive crew list. In addition, as mentioned, a crew list would satisfy MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, and I would say MOS:BUILD applies too. Blue-linked actors and their blue-linked films are likely to be interlinked most of the time (meaning that the film is linked on the actor's article and vice versa), even when an actor appears for like ten seconds in a film. (And they probably don't get named in most secondary sources about films.) A main crew member surely warrants recognition like that, and infobox constraints should not affect that interlinking. Editors and cinematographers probably get interlinked decently just because they "made it" into the infobox, but other main crew members won't, essentially because of the infobox constraints. I think that cutoff is unintentional and that a crew list can be a good way to ensure completeness in listing main contributors and establishing a presence for interlinking. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:19, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@Erik:, that goes against WP:NOTEVERYTHING which states "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful". As they have all been added without context, I'd even argue excessive cast listing would be more useful than knowing the additional assistant director to a special effects director. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:29, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

You literally asked me why a crew list is useful. Maybe move on from that line of questioning? My point still stands above, that secondary sources can often list the main crew members, and Wikipedia predominantly uses secondary sources. I'm not arguing for "additional assistant director to a special effects director" itself. It should depend on the film, and a set of names should have its roots in something secondary, may it be the cast or the crew. That should help inform inclusion or not, not our personal take (of which we can have many). Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 11:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah. Andrzejbanas has made a habit of this on the Talk:Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster page by repeatedly asking/demanding proof of value, only to ignore the answer and repeat this "not good enough, try again" behavior. This is what led me to accuse him of WP:NOTGETTINGIT and return to WP:LAWYERING. WP:NOTGETTINGIT states "Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus". WP:LAWYERING states "Using the rules in a manner to achieve a goal other than compliance with the rule (for example, to "win" an editing dispute)". All of that reflects Andrzejbanas behavior here, as they continue to ignore consensus established long ago. Armegon (talk) 19:27, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion that I can't totally follow, but the key differences between album recording personnel and film crew are that 1. music studio personal will likely be less than a dozen, while film crews can be in the thousands, and 2. if an album wins a Grammy, theoretically that entire list of people are winning a Grammy, but there are no Oscars for second unit cameramen. So, I think, listing all the music personnel of an album is about the same as listing all the producers of a film (which we already do). There is no guideline I know of currently that would say to add or not.
Whether there should be a "Crew" as well as "Cast" section, and who that should contain, is another question, and maybe all the positions for which there are individual awards possible at the majors should be considered for article body inclusion. Kingsif (talk) 09:37, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

It takes a village to make a film as well. Not just the crew members listed in the infobox. But I agree that we can't list all thousands of crew members. So, it would be logical to list additional crew members based on prominence. Or prominence of their roles if blue links are not available. And it would have to depend on the nature on the film. Since this entire argument originated in the Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster talk page, most of the crew listed could be effects crew since it is an effects driven film. Armegon (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

• Based on something Erik said about letting the sources inform a debate on inclusion, which I am taking to mean "see if multiple RS list extra crew members, and then see which crew positions are the most frequently mentioned, and then propose a guideline for inclusion of those positions based on external notability of their involvement" (based on what Armegon added, I think this could be happily expanded to also have a line about including other crew positions if RS deems them particularly relevant to the specific film).
  So, does anyone think it would be valuable to do some rough data collection: using e.g. the List of highest-grossing films and Academy Award for Best Picture list to get a broad spectrum of popular films, search the titles and "film crew" or something as a limiting term?
  For what it's worth, of course, I know Variety reviews/announcements include a selection of crew credits, but only be the current infobox selection (above-the-line, music, and editing, typically). Kingsif (talk) 20:09, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

  Erik has provided a compelling proposal at the Talk:Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster page [1]. He proposes using websites like Turner Classic Movies and other verified sources that repeatedly cite certain crew members to establish a rule of thumb. In the case of the Godzilla films, in this case Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster, I also suggested using the Criterion Collection site to further cull crew members that are repeatedly referenced. Armegon (talk) 21:07, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

• Yeah, we really don't want to create some rule of thumb that only applies to Godzilla movies... Any other sources to suggest? Kingsif (talk) 21:40, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

  I thought it went without saying, but I guess it needs to be said? This proposal could work for other films as well. Not just Godzilla films. Here's a TCM credits page for Scarface, Apocalypse Now, etc. We may also use AFI wherever possible or print publications. A print publication was cited as a source for the crew credits for Panic Room. I mentioned Godzilla films because this dispute originated at Talk:Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster, and then the disputer attempted to expand the dispute to Mothra vs. Godzilla, where it was agreed upon to establish a consensus at Talk:Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster. However, the disputer brought the dispute here, which seems to be an extension of the same dispute from Talk:Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster. Armegon (talk) 21:57, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

• I was more saying that, if developing a rule, it should be broad enough to apply to all films. So, taking care to use sources that also apply broadly. And that it makes sense to have the discussion here, not at a talkpage to apply to one film specifically - if there is going to be a guideline that could be applied broadly (even if not intended), more eyes are better. I'd also take care to avoid databases as sources, or anything else that lists the full crew, as they don't give any idea as to which crew positions the general media considers notable. Kingsif (talk) 23:27, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

  Now you're confusing me a bit. @Erik: are developing a new rule/guideline for crew lists? Armegon (talk) 01:28, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I personally don't want to develop guidelines because I don't think crew lists are even a drop in the ocean of film-article content. Deal with them on case-by-case basis. I think the spirit of WP:FILMCAST #1 could easily apply to crew lists at this point. That's why I highlighted some possible rules of thumb for Ghidorah. One last personal thought, as I don't plan to do crew lists everywhere in the edits I make, is that such a list could be better suited in films that have a lot of technical merit. Like I wouldn't mind seeing Dune (2021 film) have one with all its production work being recognized. (In that case, I see names buried in a "Development" subsection and think that a distinct list of names above the wall of text would be better.) Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:24, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The worry is that as soon as you make a rule of thumb for one film, it will be used as a precedent for others. So better to broaden it to start with. Kingsif (talk) 21:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Ready Player One

There is an ongoing discussion regarding the addition of the sequel to the lead section of the Ready Player One article. The discussion is at Talk:Ready Player One (film)#Sequel. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 08:09, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Cinemascore template

Indagate has created a CinemaScore template and is mass adding it to articles with an archive of the main CinemaScore page with its search bar alone. Looking at the page code it's just calling on an external database which to me means it isn't a proper archive since if the site, code, or database dies, there's no longer an archive. The archive as it is, is no different than going directly to CinemaScore.com. It wouldn't be an issue except the user is removing existing archives that definitively contain the info to add in this blank archive like this one which is a hard copy list of tonnes of cinemascores that will withstand any future changes to the actual CinemaScore site. Can I get some opinions please as the user and I disagree. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:12, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Most of the links I replaced were dead, https://www.cinemascore.com/publicsearch/index/title/ and either relied on archive or were just dead. Template like this that wraps cite web allows someone to change the template to dead or replace url if it becomes dead in the future. Benefit is also consistency across articles in reference. There are 1608 links to cinemascore.com per Special:Linksearch so it's widely used.

Don't see how your link is an improvement, it's an archive of a former dead link so not suitable for films updated after 9 August 2019. Doesn't work on my laptop but archive link I've used does work. Don't see why your archive link would work but mine wouldn't, both are https://web.archive.org/ Indagate (talk) 17:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The point of the archive is to be there when the original link is dead. That's the whole point, and the archive on one article does not need to be relevant to other articles, that is not its purpose, but an archive that covers all the way up to 2019 is pretty substantial on its own. Your comments don't address the longevity of your archive which is only an actual archive of CinemaScore's frontpage and is otherwise reliant on an external database. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed about purpose of archive being for when original link is dead but live direct link is better than dead link as more recent and can verify information. Same as your archive though regarding longevity, link to search engine for scores, I'd guess both are just as likely to work at any point in time, I'd say mine better as more up to date. Indagate (talk) 17:57, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The upshot is that you have removed a direct citation that provided the information and replaced it by one that does not. A reader must now type the title of the film into the interface to get the score, and as DWB points out if the website dies the information is then lost. Replacing the source with a template as done here has not improved anything, but has made it more protracted to verify the information and made the source vulnerable to link rot. The articles where this template has been added need to be put back to how they were. Betty Logan (talk) 05:06, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Let's keep discussion in one place instead of similar comments here and deletion discussion please, responded there Indagate (talk) 05:45, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

They are different discussions, so I would encourage project members to participate in both. The deletion discussion pertains to the validity of the template, while this discussion is specifically about replacing existing sourcing with the template. Betty Logan (talk) 06:27, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Adding references to the empty Cinemascore search box is one thing, but removing other better references from secondary sources (as Betty highlighted) is a different matter entirely. That is not a constructive edit. -- 109.78.199.198 (talk) 03:30, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Responded to that in deletion discussion, but don't think Box Office Mojo is reliable for their articles, just Box Office figures, especially being owned by IMDb Indagate (talk) 09:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Are there any examples of Box Office Mojo misquoting a Cinemascore? If not, then a reliable source should be presumed reliable for this information unless evidence emerges that indicates otherwise. Betty Logan (talk) 14:46, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Related, I've nominated {{Cite CinemaScore}} for deletion here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:05, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

@Darkwarriorblake: Looks like the result is to delete: Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2022_April_17#Template:Cite_CinemaScore. Betty Logan (talk) 12:55, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I suggest we simply replace it with {{cite web}}. I don't think the "Each film's score can be accessed from the website's search bar" note is necessary. Nardog (talk) 12:59, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Sure, included that because was in some high-visible articles so thought should include in template, agree that it's unnecessary, should be consistent across articles Indagate (talk) 13:04, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Done. Nardog (talk) 09:02, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks @Nardog, isn't CinemaScore a website so should be italicised though and not publisher as you've put? Indagate (talk) 10:35, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

It is both a website and a publisher, but putting it in |website= makes little sense because the website is already the very thing that's being cited, so I put it in |publisher=. Nardog (talk) 10:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The cite web documentation says "Do not use the publisher parameter for the name of a work (e.g. a website, book, encyclopedia, newspaper, magazine, journal, etc.)", so thought that means the website parameter should be used for CinemaScore? Don't think the publisher parameter should be included as they're the same, only in future if different enough Indagate (talk) 11:10, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

What |work= (which |website= is an alias for) means is "the thing I'm citing is part of this larger work", e.g. the journal for an academic paper, the newspaper for a news article. That could not apply when the thing you're citing and the website are the same thing. And of course the company CinemaScore is the publisher of the website CinemaScore. Nardog (talk) 11:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

@Nardog:, per WP:ITALICWEBCITE, it should be at |website= or |work=. —El Millo (talk) 17:25, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

What Facu-el Millo said. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 18:32, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Per which part of WP:ITALICWEBSITE? Are you saying CinemaScore is an online magazine, newspaper, news site with original content, or online non-user-generated encyclopedia or dictionary? And even if it was, it still wouldn't make sense to use |website=, which is for the name of the work containing the source. The website CinemaScore is not the work containing the source; it's the source itself. Nardog (talk) 02:38, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Please don't pick WP:BIKESHED-ish topics to argue about. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:33, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

New WikiProject

Hey everyone at WP Film, There is a new Wikiproject proposal for 20th Century Studios. (see Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/20th Century Studios) So if you are interested in joining please say so in the proposal, so we can see if there will be enough member to start a project. ― Kaleeb18^Talk_Caleb 20:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Diary of a Camper Featured article review

I have nominated Diary of a Camper for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Critical reception at Morbius

There is an ongoing content dispute at Morbius (film) regarding how to summarize the critical reception for the film. Please see Talk:Morbius (film)#"Leto and Smith's performances were praised". Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Soundtrack Geek

It was brought to my attention by this edit that the website Soundtrack Geek, which formerly published reviews for film soundtracks, is now a website on sex-related topics. So, for all of the articles listed here, any links to Soundtrack Geek needs to be archived, have their URL statuses changed to url-status=dead, or removed outright. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

More direct linking here: Special:LinkSearch Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:06, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Actors lists at AfD

Hi. You may be interested in the following discussions:

• One
• Two

Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 11:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

New stub Everything's Gonna Be All White created

I've created a new stub called Everything's Gonna Be All White. I've added 9 references to the article and have added the infobox as well as the overview, cast, episodes and reception sections, but the article still needs some work like expanding and the episode list reformatted to the correct format. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 20:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Godzilla discussion

There's an ongoing discussion regarding Japan's involvement in Legendary Pictures' Godzilla franchise. It can be found at Talk:Godzilla (2014 film)#Japan. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

List of highest-grossing sports films

I don't know where to begin here, or where this should go for wikiprojects, but this list which seems to have been maintained by two authors, is quite possibly the loosest interpretation of "sports film" to begin with. I would go in and clean it but I know, from reading the history, that I would be accused of vandalism or OR. The various edits show an ongoing war over whether to include pokemon, as it is a blood sport with cockfighting, whether or not Titanic counts due to featuring a poker game, the top of the list is The Hunger Games linking to battle royale which is a historical concept and pro wrestling thing but has no connection to the film outside of the "battle royale" greater genre of murder/horror films and games.

Sports films seems to be the template for the article, but if the average person came to read this (and I am one) they would be left befuddled by the disconnect between what they understand a sports film to be and a film that includes sport. Forrest Gump, Gladiator (2000 film), Alita: Battle Angel and Casino Royale (2006 film). I don't know where to begin but this has been tagged for over two years and it's only gotten worse. –– Lid^(Talk) 13:29, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

I concur that the criteria is way too loose. It is pretty much original research how this list is compiled, and it does not seem any of the references even talk about this topic collectively. I hate to say it, but maybe deletion should be considered. It seems like the highest-grossing films should be recognized by sport, and that could be done at lists of specific sports films (though these lists don't look in particularly great shape). Like on a list of baseball films, the highest-grossing ones could be mentioned in prose or in a top-ten list in addition to the main list. Something like that. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

How do we go about this? –– Lid^(Talk) 09:35, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I would follow the process at WP:AFD. Even if it is not deleted, there can be a consensus determined on what to do next. I take it back about having the box office hits at the specific lists. I think something like what I mentioned below would be more narrow and better. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 11:36, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

The list seems to violate WP:LSC, where there is no reliable sourcing for how a film appears on the list. Furthermore, is the list topic even a notable list topic? Are there, out there outside of Wikipedia, other lists of highest grossing sports films? If not, the topic is not notable. If so, our list should substantially match those lists, or else it is orignal research. If this is not a valid topic for a list, AFD may be the way to go. --Jayron32 13:52, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

They do exist: CNBC, Sports Illustrated. But it seems like we could just have a top-ten list at sports film itself and not use these as a license to have this kind of vague and sprawling list. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:59, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

War drama

Notification that Category:War drama films and its sub-categories are up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_April_28#Category:War_drama_films. Betty Logan (talk) 12:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Citizen Kane

Input from experienced editors is needed at Talk:Citizen Kane#Reception in lead where there is a dispute over how the film's critical standing should be characterized. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:11, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

The Last Jedi

I am updating the Star Wars: The Last Jedi article to talk about the film's recent re-evaluation. I know what sources I will use - but I was wondering if my sources can all be primary sources - or whether I have to use a mix of primary and secondary. If I do have to mix, I would like to know why as I don't understand that. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I've left comments on the talk page for The Last Jedi if anyone wants to reply to me there :) 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Unattributed translations copied into Plot summary of many film articles

Please be aware of new users such as KatBet (talk · contribs)^[noping] pasting unattributed machine-translated content word for word from German, Italian, or other Wikipedias into the Plot section of film articles in violation of the attribution requirements at WP:Copying within Wikipedia (in particular, WP:TFOLWP). For further details, see User talk:KatBet#Please stop adding translated plot summaries without attribution. In addition, there is some concern that KatBet may be a sockpuppet of indeffed User:Oldhedge (see this discussion) and so may return as a new user under some other name. The pattern appears to be: adding paragraphs sequentially to the Plot section of a film article, one paragraph at a time, with paragraphs appearing from one to four minutes apart (as if passing them through DeepL or Google translate one paragraph at a time, and pasting the result into the Plot section).

Please remain vigilant about film articles, in particular German or Italian films from the 1950s and 1960s, and please examine any updates that hit your watchlist, especially when they are to Plot sections and look like they might have stiff, or "translated-sounding" content. If you do notice anything suspicious, please add a comment to the CCI noticeboard, where there is already an investigation request pending. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:04, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Removing actors' names from plot summaries

Should the rule from WP:FILMPLOT "Do not include actors' names in the plot summary, as it is considered redundant to the `cast` section" be followed rigorously, or not at all? -- Pete Best Beatles (talk) 16:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

• The guideline should definitely be followed. There's no point in listing an actor's name in the summary and making a "Cast" section. The only exception is if you excluded a #Cast section entirely (see Panic Room and Moonrise Kingdom) but I recommend following the rule. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• I've seen arguments either way, but I think that it is simpler to not include it. If we talk about including it, we have to answer the following questions: Should we do it for all film articles, or only where the actors are known? Should we name the actor for every character mentioned in the plot summary? Should we rewrite the plot summary to try to mention more characters thus more roles? Should we have blue links for all the actors? Should we rewrite the plot summary to avoid introducing multiple characters in one sentence (because that means naming all the actors too)? I feel like there are all these nuances that editors can argue over and have fair points in different ways, and it's not worth the debating. I'd prefer tying starring actors with their roles or the film's premise in the lead section. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• I say follow it. In addition to challenges including the names poses outlined by Erik, there's additional issues of "do these names count toward FILMPLOT word count" and constructions like "John Smith's (Some Guy) house" are awkward to read. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 17:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• Sidebar, just curious, is there a particular reason this RfC was opened. I recall this was discussed one month ago with the opener, where it was unanimously stated by project members that the guideline is very clear. I'm just curious if some disagreement occurred in the past month that necessitates an RfC to clarify what is already very explicitly stated in the MOS. An RfC is for disputes. If this is just a general question, then this RfC was opened improperly. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 18:20, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the editor is new and may be unfamiliar with the fact that RFCs are kind of a last resort. Pete Best Beatles, based on WP:RFCBEFORE, simply asking the question on this WikiProject talk page is sufficient. I would say to think of launching an RFC as casting a very wide net for opinions, like for instance discussing changes to policies and the overarching guidelines (not just subject-specific). Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 21:30, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Here's what happened. After that earlier discussion, I began happily deleting actor' names from plot summaries whenever I found them, referencing WP|FILMPLOT in the edit summaries as suggested, and feeling pretty productive and helpful about it. Yesterday Beyond My Ken sent me a message stating "Please note that FILMPLOT is a guideline and not a mandatory policy. Many of us feel that the actors' names in the plot section is a service to our readers...I will be reverting your edits using rollback." I didn't know what to do (yes, I'm a new editor), so I contacted one of the helpful contributors to that earlier discussion directly. They replied to Beyond My Ken on my talk page: "If you disagree with WP:FILMPLOT or think it does not reflect the current de facto consensus, I'd suggest opening a discussion or RfC...to clarify consensus (Pete Best Beatles, you're welcome to open the RfC there yourself if you get to it first...)." So that's what I did. -- Pete Best Beatles (talk) 06:10, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Comment: Pinging @Beyond My Ken for response/comment. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 14:00, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

In my experience, BMK has been the minority opinion for various film-related guidelines over the years, always emphasizing the "only a guideline" rationale to revert changes to articles they edit. Of course I'm only noticing when they contest the guidelines, there may be some that they follow willingly or incidentally. While their rationale can be a fair point in general, I think the community tries to balance flexibility in what to do and what not to do, and the reason for this particular guideline has been outlined in this discussion.

On the other hand, Pete Best Beatles, I'm personally not crazy about serial editing of one kind. The more articles one makes the same change to, the more likely a dispute will arise with another editor, and the more petty the power dynamic (e.g., going around making the same change and getting challenged and trying to restore that change invoking consensus-based best practices, forcing a guideline to be universally applied as policy). My personal advice is to worry less about making widespread changes especially when neither version is outright detrimental. I think there are good reasons to avoid actors' names in plot summaries, but I don't think they're compelling enough to "enforce" that avoidance systemically. Who knows, maybe years down the road, the consensus will change, or Wikipedia will have some dynamic way for readers to toggle between seeing and not seeing actors' names in the plot, and this discussion would be rendered moot. I think it is more meaningful to add content to articles since in my experience, content is "sticky" -- it will stick around for a long time, perhaps "forever". That's my $0.02. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:11, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

• Follow it. (Summoned by bot) I wasn't aware of the rule, but in general find such 'inline' naming intrusive or reduntant at best. So yes, follow the rule. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, we should be following the rule as the information is redundant. At the very least, we should not be reverting changes to conform with the guideline without any attempt to change the guideline. No guideline, policy or rule on Wikipedia is ever "mandatory" (because of WP:IAR), but you need a reason of some kind to break the rule. — Bilorv (talk) 13:57, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

• (Invited b the bot) I think that the discussions above are missing the reality which is the middle ground. It's practice that is usually a good one to follow, and to be taken into consideration when considering decision otherwise. It's in a guideline, not a policy, and from a set of guidelines which have huge amount of content that has had only a local consensus. So it's certainly not a mandate. And also is not enough to go on to rapidly make large amount of un-discussed changes at a large amount of articles, including without checking if there has already been a discussed decision otherwise at the article.North8000 (talk) 14:24, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
• Agree with removing names, outside of cases where the cast (or other equivalent section) is not used, as would be the case of arthouse films which may have a cast you can count on one hand. The style of naming cast members after character names is an extension that falls from movie reviews in newspapers and magazines where there isn't a cast list, so it makes sense that its listed there, but here where we 99.99% of the time have such a section devoted to cast lists, its wasting space and noise. But we should be flexible in cases where the cast list is not used, and in other rare instances if editors agree by consensus that there's a good reason to include the names in the plot. --Masem (t) 14:35, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
• No - Just a reminder to all and sundry, that ArbCom has stated very clearly that WikiProjects do not control the content of the articles they include within their purview. FILMPLOT is, and remains only a guideline, and it cannot be made mandatory by this or any other RfC held in this venue -- which, of course, makes the RfC totally pointless. Whatever the result, this is essentially a local consensus, and is not valid for Wikipedia as a whole. Those who wish to make FILMPLOT mandatory are advised to nominate it to be a policy and have the community as a whole decide the issue. In the meantime, it remains a non-mandatory guideline. (And Erik, you know damn well that I follow the vast majority of guidelines. I am very disappointed in your well-poisoning comment.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:48, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

  I was citing what I have observed here. I do not recall a past guideline-related discussion where there was a positive agreement at the end, whether a compelling enough argument being made to follow a best practice as outlined in guidelines, or to concede to a kind of consensus. It's possible these happen before and out of sight, whereas irreconcilable differences escalate to this talk page and end bitterly. I know for myself that sometimes I do not agree with the guidelines and other kinds of consensus that revoke some new approach I try out. Feel free to make your case further here as needed. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 23:16, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

• Definitely. It is utterly ridiculous that plot sections - many of which already struggle with their length - are littered with bracketed references to the actors, when the very same information is almost always set out in detail in the section immediately following, as well as the leads usually having been named already in the lead section. These bracketed bits of redundant information interrupt the reading flow for people who want to know what the storyline is, whilst helping only those who have somehow prized off and lost the page down button from their keyboard. MapReader (talk) 19:42, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
• Definitely, follow it. It amazes me, given the few policies, and the many guidelines, and the fact that guidelines were created as the practical activities required to see policies followed, that guidelines are here being given short shrift (Ken). See the tables of policies and guidelines that follow every policy article (e.g., WP:VERIFY)—it is clear, by achieving a consensus around given guidelines, we achieve the policy aims of the community. That said, here is my full perspective, which will likely aggravate everyone.

Ken's emphases notwithstanding, guidelines exist to guarantee readers uniformity of reading experience with regard to quality and appearance, and having a guideline that is followed, except at the articles that make a particular editor angry, is an invitation to diminished overall quality at the encyclopedia. And while Ken's wikilawyering is correct, it is not the way of this place to elevate the strident perspective of even a devoted editor. Ken's tendency is to focus on the fact that the MOS allows for common sense exceptions; but that is a distortion, here: the MOS describes itself as "a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow", and doing the exact opposite is neither a common sense exception, nor is it a good faith attempt to follow the "generally accepted standard". Moreover, overarching decisions are made by consensus, and the clear consensus in the Project (which is more important than any individual perspective, see following for mine) is to proceed with plot descriptions absent actor-character pairings. So, Guideline in place, consensus in place, the course should be clear—make the articles uniform in this direction. That is to say, this group of editors should support the editor making the edits-to-guideline, and revert Ken. (There is no excuse to hang out a guideline-following editor to dry. This group has the needed local majority to move articles in the direction that the guideline asks.)

Now, to make everyone else angry: I strongly disagree with the sentiment stated we should not do cross-article, guideline-directed edits (over many articles). Is that not what many automations at WP are doing? Is that not what tag-informed teams are already doing for unsourced and undersourced articles (etc.)? Are we to tell individuals not to make blanket improvements and corrections, just because the process is not yet bot-driven? Yes, it increases the chance of conflict with other editors. But that is what guidelines and the consensus efforts of WikiProjects are for—to ensure the will of the community prevails over any single perspective (or of any local article bully). So, change the guideline, or enforce it, but don't tell earnest, properly compliant editors not to make edits that they are willing to, to improve the quality and consistency of the encyclopedia.

Finally, I have to close by saying... I personally disagree with the guideline. I personally agree with Ken. [If the plot summaries included in the movie reviews of every major esteemed review venue (to the extent to which they include such summaries) does not find character-actor presentations in the text to be intrusive or awkward, neither do I.] In my first experiences here, it was the absence of these, not their presence that was jarring. As for redundancies—they are so far and wide here, the minor redundancy of stating the character-actor pairing twice is a non-concern. Likewise, comparing the awkwardness of someone naive about a film having to jump back and forth between two sections to know which actor is playing which part, versus the awkwardness of haing sentences interspersed, parenthetically, with actor name... there is a strong case to be made that the original guideline got it wrong (and that Ken is fundamentally correct).

This last paragraph is not really stated to incite anger or disagreement. Rather, it is stated to make clear that my "let's get tough with Ken" content is actually a statement against interest. I actually agree, fundamentally, with Ken's view. But if the place has rules (and guidelines are near to as strong a set of rules as we have), then we (a) need to follow them, and (b) as well, we need to bring the consensus of the Project to articles in support of editors that follow them. (I will have no reply to anything here. This is just to spur closing comments, but more so, action.) 2601:246:C700:558:E05F:BFAD:304D:DDBC (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2022 (UTC)